3 ms·

As much as the US government would like people to believe otherwise, things like laws goes out the window pretty quickly when it comes to geopolitics. This isn'

by yibg 6y ago

As much as the US government would like people to believe otherwise, things like laws goes out the window pretty quickly when it comes to geopolitics. This isn't a new thing in the US either. Maybe just more people are realizing it recently.

eecc 6y ago
The farce at the UN Security Council that Colin Powell made years ago spelled that out pretty clearly already. If anything, it somewhat formally respected the role of the UN, but the brazen lying asserted how the USA wasn’t worried at all of the consequences
iKevinShah 6y ago
I am neither a US Citizen or a resident BUT this is not only about "geopolitics" but more about National Security too. There's literally a law in China which states you have to provide "crucial information for review" to the government if asked. You(the firm operating in China) cant deny that. Period. That itself is scary, regardless of whether or not politics / geopolitics is involved. The law (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Internet_Security_Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Internet_Security_Law) : > Regarding the requirements for spot-checks and certifications, international law firms have warned that companies could be asked to provide source code, encryption, or other crucial information for review by the authorities, increasing the risk of this information being lost, passed on to local competitors, or used by the authorities themselves.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > There's literally a law in China which states you have to provide "crucial information for review" to the government if asked. You(the firm operating in China) cant deny that. Period. Despite having a Chinese parent, isn't it the case that TikTok itself does not operate in China?
  - manigandham 6y ago
    That doesn't stop the parent company from being beholden to CCP's demands.
    - coliveira 6y ago
      Facebook is also behold to the US government demands, as we have seen in the hearings during the last few days.
      - manigandham 6y ago
        You don't think there's a difference between USA vs CCP? There are many examples of standing up to the government in America. That doesn't happen in China.
  - iKevinShah 6y ago
    It doesn't but sends a good amount of data to China which they have not yet (to my information) clarified. Similar ban was implemented in India, which gives more context to what I am trying to say. Source: https://pib.gov.in/PressReleseDetailm.aspx?PRID=1635206 https://pib.gov.in/PressReleseDetailm.aspx?PRID=1635206 And parent company will always have the dibs, if you will, on Tiktok. Regardless of whether tiktok is out of China or in.
  - starfallg 6y ago
    There is no firewall between TikTok and Bytedance, so basically you can think of them as one company producing 2 apps, one inside China and one outside.
- samgaw 6y ago
  There is literally a law in every country that follows the same theme. The UK has the Investigatory Powers Act 2016 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investigatory_Powers_Act_2016); https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investigatory_Powers_Act_2016)... the US uses FISA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Court); https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intellig... globally there is Five Eyes and SSEUR (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes) working together on information gathering & intelligence sharing which often includes another member harvesting data when local laws don't permit it. This is not about national security. This is economic retaliation in a long brewing cold war over influence and power, backed by lobbyists who do not like being left out in the cold due to China's protectionist policies. Call it what it is and I would be surprised if more people didn't support it. But it is becoming far too common for many aspects of politics that are driven by profit or control hiding behind the guise of national security.
pjmlp 6y ago
As European, that belongs to the first generation out of a dictorship, another thing that surprises me is the American belief that three letter agencies care about any law besides their own internal regulations. Even in the current democracy state, is my expectation that our own ones across the European states will do whatever it takes, with various degrees of flexibility.
- fluffything 6y ago
  I'm not sure I agree. We have trade-deals across countries, and IMO these trade deals should account for access to markets, e.g., Chinese companies can operate in Europe freely (abiding by our laws) _if_ European companies can operate in China freely as well. Trade-deals change all the time, and when these change, some companies might get kick off. I think this is a functional and rational thing to do for the EU. If you don't have any deals or specific laws about it, then pretty much everything goes. Maybe the EU could have a law that all foreign companies that abide by the EU rules can operate in Europe freely, but I strongly doubt that. Every country does pretty much whatever they want in this regard (e.g. we see it with some countries allowing Huawei to sell 5G equipment, others forbidding it, and others like Germany attempting to forbid it without mentioning Huawei). All these countries have different rules, so they all end up doing their different stuff. China (+) is buying lots of EU companies, "forcing" them to produce and do engineering in China, with a Chinese partner, and then ripping them completely off, as part of their 2025 program. TBH I'm very concerned about some of the companies they have bought (e.g. Rukka). I am certain this is good for China, but I don't see how this can be good for the EU in the long term. China is very open that their plan is to acquire and become leaders in the technology, and then flip a switch and cut us out.. but they are the highest bidders today... (+) these are actually chinese companies, but sponsored and ordered by the Chinese government, with essentially unlimited funds.

by yibg 6y ago

eecc 6y ago

The farce at the UN Security Council that Colin Powell made years ago spelled that out pretty clearly already. If anything, it somewhat formally respected the role of the UN, but the brazen lying asserted how the USA wasn’t worried at all of the consequences

iKevinShah 6y ago

I am neither a US Citizen or a resident BUT this is not only about "geopolitics" but more about National Security too. There's literally a law in China which states you have to provide "crucial information for review" to the government if asked. You(the firm operating in China) cant deny that. Period. That itself is scary, regardless of whether or not politics / geopolitics is involved. The law (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Internet_Security_Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Internet_Security_Law) : > Regarding the requirements for spot-checks and certifications, international law firms have warned that companies could be asked to provide source code, encryption, or other crucial information for review by the authorities, increasing the risk of this information being lost, passed on to local competitors, or used by the authorities themselves.

dragonwriter 6y ago
> There's literally a law in China which states you have to provide "crucial information for review" to the government if asked. You(the firm operating in China) cant deny that. Period. Despite having a Chinese parent, isn't it the case that TikTok itself does not operate in China?
- manigandham 6y ago
  That doesn't stop the parent company from being beholden to CCP's demands.
  - coliveira 6y ago
    Facebook is also behold to the US government demands, as we have seen in the hearings during the last few days.
    - manigandham 6y ago
      You don't think there's a difference between USA vs CCP? There are many examples of standing up to the government in America. That doesn't happen in China.
- iKevinShah 6y ago
  It doesn't but sends a good amount of data to China which they have not yet (to my information) clarified. Similar ban was implemented in India, which gives more context to what I am trying to say. Source: https://pib.gov.in/PressReleseDetailm.aspx?PRID=1635206 https://pib.gov.in/PressReleseDetailm.aspx?PRID=1635206 And parent company will always have the dibs, if you will, on Tiktok. Regardless of whether tiktok is out of China or in.
- starfallg 6y ago
  There is no firewall between TikTok and Bytedance, so basically you can think of them as one company producing 2 apps, one inside China and one outside.
samgaw 6y ago
There is literally a law in every country that follows the same theme. The UK has the Investigatory Powers Act 2016 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investigatory_Powers_Act_2016); https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investigatory_Powers_Act_2016)... the US uses FISA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Court); https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intellig... globally there is Five Eyes and SSEUR (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes) working together on information gathering & intelligence sharing which often includes another member harvesting data when local laws don't permit it. This is not about national security. This is economic retaliation in a long brewing cold war over influence and power, backed by lobbyists who do not like being left out in the cold due to China's protectionist policies. Call it what it is and I would be surprised if more people didn't support it. But it is becoming far too common for many aspects of politics that are driven by profit or control hiding behind the guise of national security.

pjmlp 6y ago

As European, that belongs to the first generation out of a dictorship, another thing that surprises me is the American belief that three letter agencies care about any law besides their own internal regulations. Even in the current democracy state, is my expectation that our own ones across the European states will do whatever it takes, with various degrees of flexibility.

fluffything 6y ago
I'm not sure I agree. We have trade-deals across countries, and IMO these trade deals should account for access to markets, e.g., Chinese companies can operate in Europe freely (abiding by our laws) _if_ European companies can operate in China freely as well. Trade-deals change all the time, and when these change, some companies might get kick off. I think this is a functional and rational thing to do for the EU. If you don't have any deals or specific laws about it, then pretty much everything goes. Maybe the EU could have a law that all foreign companies that abide by the EU rules can operate in Europe freely, but I strongly doubt that. Every country does pretty much whatever they want in this regard (e.g. we see it with some countries allowing Huawei to sell 5G equipment, others forbidding it, and others like Germany attempting to forbid it without mentioning Huawei). All these countries have different rules, so they all end up doing their different stuff. China (+) is buying lots of EU companies, "forcing" them to produce and do engineering in China, with a Chinese partner, and then ripping them completely off, as part of their 2025 program. TBH I'm very concerned about some of the companies they have bought (e.g. Rukka). I am certain this is good for China, but I don't see how this can be good for the EU in the long term. China is very open that their plan is to acquire and become leaders in the technology, and then flip a switch and cut us out.. but they are the highest bidders today... (+) these are actually chinese companies, but sponsored and ordered by the Chinese government, with essentially unlimited funds.