4 ms·

I don't see any evidence of hot wiring. In my book, hot wiring would be decentralized access over unconventional transport like long range radio or plain old te

I don't see any evidence of hot wiring. In my book, hot wiring would be decentralized access over unconventional transport like long range radio or plain old telephones or a relay of wifis or satellites in a way that can't be easily restricted by a government. But Telegram is just part of the same old centralized server approach.

emteycz 6y ago
Since it works even when Internet is disconnected,it doesn't seem to be that centralized. You can send only text in the disconnected mode, though.
- tgragnato 6y ago
  Telegram is a centralized service, full stop. It has the ability to use evasion strategies, but doing that doesn’t make the software decentralized.
  - emteycz 6y ago
    If peers communicate directly, then it doesn't seem to be that clear. I am not sure if they do, though, some people claim it does and some that it does not.
    - tgragnato 6y ago
      Calls use WebRTC, which is of course p2p. [https://github.com/telegramdesktop/tdesktop/blob/master/Telegram/SourceFiles/calls/calls_controller_webrtc.cpp https://github.com/telegramdesktop/tdesktop/blob/master/Tele...] Point is I don't see anything decentralised in MTProto. Unless I'm mistaken Durov announced that he wants to make something p2p, but right now it's not. [https://github.com/telegramdesktop/tdesktop/tree/master/Telegram/SourceFiles/mtproto https://github.com/telegramdesktop/tdesktop/tree/master/Tele...] See: https://core.telegram.org/mtproto#transport https://core.telegram.org/mtproto#transport
      - tgragnato 6y ago
        In addition, the signaling protocol for WebRTC in Telegram is MTProto. If an ISP were to really block MTProto, then the P2P functionalities would stop working as well.
jillesvangurp 6y ago
I was in Belarus earlier this year. The thing to understand about how that country works is that there are only two interdependent groups of people that hold wealth: 1) the ruling elite that acquires their riches through nepotism, corruption, etc. Belarus is basically a kleptocracy. 2) the booming IT sector, which is now the primary export product of Belarus and employs a lot of people working in the vast outsourcing industry that serves big western companies. People doing that work earn pretty good salaries by Belarusian standards. There are hundreds of thousands of them and the sector tends to hover up anyone with relevant college degrees as there's little else to do. E.g. dentists or doctors earn comparatively little compared to that. The problem the regime has is that anyone with a clue and IT skills is monetizing those skills in that sector as government jobs, including those in its vast security forces, don't pay a lot. So, they don't necessarily have a lot of in house competence implementing any kind of sophisticated blocking strategies. Anyone capable of implementing that could quadruple their salaries by jumping ship. The state telco company gets most of its revenues from the IT sector as well. So they don't have any incentive to shut down their core business. I'm guessing it's mostly Russia that helps them with the technical parts of that. Of course Russia and Putin are currently mildly annoyed with Lukashenko and are looking to grow their influence in Belarus a bit by letting him flail desperately for a while. So, they are a bit hands off right now and not in a mood to help him out. The second problem is that group #1 is basically tapping into the wealth generated by group #2. So shutting down the internet is a spectacularly bad idea for #2 for obvious reasons and therefore not a popular notion for #1 either. The people who would be at all capable of effecting such a change are mostly working in the IT sector already and the elite in group #1 kind of needs them to keep on doing their thing so the money keeps flowing. Besides, rich people need their internet fix and Lukashenko is considered a bit of an old relic by both groups. A convenient stooge at best. Hence internet shutdowns tend to be short lived, ineffective, and largely symbolic. Telegram is important for both groups and completely outside of the control of Belarusian authorities. It's the same reason the Russians have failed to shut that down. They can't do it without cutting off the IT sector and the financial gains coming from that sector and none of the billionaires that make up the elite like it when their shiny iphones stop working.
- Hitton 6y ago
  Thanks, that was much more informative and better explanation of situation in Belarus than I have read anywhere else. Also shorter. I wonder if that is related to the fact that you are not trying to show ads together with that.
iso947 6y ago
Back when I compiled my own kernel, options like packet radio always evoked a feeling of wonder. There’s no reason twitter or whatsapp couldn’t be usable on the bps that ax25 documents describe, but using 9600bps or evening less to try to load a modern webpage sounds a recipe for disaster
pixelkritzel 6y ago
Yep, before my inner eye I saw ethernet cables hanging over the streets. Businesses opening their networks and starting own DNS servers. Printed flyers how to change ones phone settings are thrown out of windows and driving cars. But it's just alternative messengers and VPNs. On the other hand this is probably a good thing. During the Arab Spring Egypt cut its internet lines and activist like Telecomix provided dial-in internet access. Nowadays even a dictator can't cut the internet access without causing massive damages.

emteycz 6y ago

Since it works even when Internet is disconnected,it doesn't seem to be that centralized. You can send only text in the disconnected mode, though.

tgragnato 6y ago
Telegram is a centralized service, full stop. It has the ability to use evasion strategies, but doing that doesn’t make the software decentralized.
- emteycz 6y ago
  If peers communicate directly, then it doesn't seem to be that clear. I am not sure if they do, though, some people claim it does and some that it does not.
  - tgragnato 6y ago
    Calls use WebRTC, which is of course p2p. [https://github.com/telegramdesktop/tdesktop/blob/master/Telegram/SourceFiles/calls/calls_controller_webrtc.cpp https://github.com/telegramdesktop/tdesktop/blob/master/Tele...] Point is I don't see anything decentralised in MTProto. Unless I'm mistaken Durov announced that he wants to make something p2p, but right now it's not. [https://github.com/telegramdesktop/tdesktop/tree/master/Telegram/SourceFiles/mtproto https://github.com/telegramdesktop/tdesktop/tree/master/Tele...] See: https://core.telegram.org/mtproto#transport https://core.telegram.org/mtproto#transport
    - tgragnato 6y ago
      In addition, the signaling protocol for WebRTC in Telegram is MTProto. If an ISP were to really block MTProto, then the P2P functionalities would stop working as well.

jillesvangurp 6y ago

I was in Belarus earlier this year. The thing to understand about how that country works is that there are only two interdependent groups of people that hold wealth: 1) the ruling elite that acquires their riches through nepotism, corruption, etc. Belarus is basically a kleptocracy. 2) the booming IT sector, which is now the primary export product of Belarus and employs a lot of people working in the vast outsourcing industry that serves big western companies. People doing that work earn pretty good salaries by Belarusian standards. There are hundreds of thousands of them and the sector tends to hover up anyone with relevant college degrees as there's little else to do. E.g. dentists or doctors earn comparatively little compared to that. The problem the regime has is that anyone with a clue and IT skills is monetizing those skills in that sector as government jobs, including those in its vast security forces, don't pay a lot. So, they don't necessarily have a lot of in house competence implementing any kind of sophisticated blocking strategies. Anyone capable of implementing that could quadruple their salaries by jumping ship. The state telco company gets most of its revenues from the IT sector as well. So they don't have any incentive to shut down their core business. I'm guessing it's mostly Russia that helps them with the technical parts of that. Of course Russia and Putin are currently mildly annoyed with Lukashenko and are looking to grow their influence in Belarus a bit by letting him flail desperately for a while. So, they are a bit hands off right now and not in a mood to help him out. The second problem is that group #1 is basically tapping into the wealth generated by group #2. So shutting down the internet is a spectacularly bad idea for #2 for obvious reasons and therefore not a popular notion for #1 either. The people who would be at all capable of effecting such a change are mostly working in the IT sector already and the elite in group #1 kind of needs them to keep on doing their thing so the money keeps flowing. Besides, rich people need their internet fix and Lukashenko is considered a bit of an old relic by both groups. A convenient stooge at best. Hence internet shutdowns tend to be short lived, ineffective, and largely symbolic. Telegram is important for both groups and completely outside of the control of Belarusian authorities. It's the same reason the Russians have failed to shut that down. They can't do it without cutting off the IT sector and the financial gains coming from that sector and none of the billionaires that make up the elite like it when their shiny iphones stop working.

Hitton 6y ago
Thanks, that was much more informative and better explanation of situation in Belarus than I have read anywhere else. Also shorter. I wonder if that is related to the fact that you are not trying to show ads together with that.

iso947 6y ago

Back when I compiled my own kernel, options like packet radio always evoked a feeling of wonder. There’s no reason twitter or whatsapp couldn’t be usable on the bps that ax25 documents describe, but using 9600bps or evening less to try to load a modern webpage sounds a recipe for disaster

pixelkritzel 6y ago

Yep, before my inner eye I saw ethernet cables hanging over the streets. Businesses opening their networks and starting own DNS servers. Printed flyers how to change ones phone settings are thrown out of windows and driving cars. But it's just alternative messengers and VPNs. On the other hand this is probably a good thing. During the Arab Spring Egypt cut its internet lines and activist like Telecomix provided dial-in internet access. Nowadays even a dictator can't cut the internet access without causing massive damages.