5 ms·

That will never happen as long as shareholders are the only people that companies are legally beholden to That will never happen as long as software continues

by tomc1985 6y ago

That will never happen as long as shareholders are the only people that companies are legally beholden to That will never happen as long as software continues to be regarded as a "cost center" That will never happen as long as developers insist that their happiness is more immportant than that of their users That will never happen as long as evangelists keep pushing this doctrine that more updates, more features, more whatever, is better

spaetzleesser 6y ago
"shareholders are the only people that companies are legally beholden to" I don't think that's actual true. As far as I know the only legal obligation a company has is to conduct lawful business.
- tomc1985 6y ago
  Shareholders can sue if they do not think their interests are being properly represented/manifested. They can also arbitrarily shuffle senior management as they see fit Neither customers nor employees can do that
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - bdowling 6y ago
    > Shareholders can sue if they do not think their interests are being properly represented/manifested. In general, shareholder recourse is limited to electing a new board that will do what those shareholders want. The exceptions are cases where the actions of the corporation or board are discriminatory to some shareholders, or where there is fraud or self-dealing by insiders (e.g., shareholder derivative suits). > They can also arbitrarily shuffle senior management as they see fit Not directly. Shareholders elect the board, which then chooses the managers (CEO, etc.) who actually run the company. Shareholders usually only elect board members once per year at the annual meeting. So it’s not arbitrary. > Neither customers nor employees can do that This is true. Customers and employees don’t direct the corporation the same ways that the owners (shareholders) do. However, customers can boycott and employees can strike. Those can be effective ways to influence the direction of a corporation. Also, customers can sue for other things (e.g., fraud or malpractice), as can employees (e.g., employment discrimination). And any injured third party can sue the corporation.
    - tomc1985 6y ago
      You are correct, I am getting my wires crossed a bit.
- FridgeSeal 6y ago
  Whilst it may not be technically true, most companies behave as if it is.
cringepirate 6y ago
No you got it the wrong way around. The power is in the hands of the user. > That will never happen as long as shareholders are the only people that companies are legally beholden to The user has a choice not to use products that are made by companies that don't respect them. > That will never happen as long as developers insist that their happiness is more immportant than that of their users The user can simply stop using the software if the developer doesn't respect their time (happiness is a completely subjective property dependant on the individual). So I say this will never happen while people won't actively move for alternatives and put up with crappy products. I made the effort to stop using products from large companies that don't respect my privacy and don't respect freedom of speech of their users. So whenever possible I don't use any products from the large tech companies. If people can't be bothered and choose to be ignorant, they deserve what they get.
- Sabinus 6y ago
  Governments are supposed to intervene in markets to keep them stable, functional and ethical. Hand-balling all market regulation to ethical individual consumption isn't workable for many industries where companies can monopolize, capture regulation and sway public opinion with advertising campaigns.
  - cringepirate 6y ago
    Unfortunately I should have expected a reply such as this. Everything is seen as a all or nothing proposition. I think it is pretty obvious that if companies are abusing their position to that extent an appropriate governing body should step in. However there are going to be issues that won't fall under such a remit. Also just because the government/regulator is failing to step in, doesn't mean you can't be doing something yourself. I was getting very frustrated with Google and its products. So I decided to stop using them whenever possible. As for moving away from industry giants, this works. Firefox (back in the early 2000s) chipped away at IE's monopoly and broke the stagnation.
- tomc1985 6y ago
  > If people can't be bothered and choose to be ignorant, they deserve what they get. The problem is that those that do care also have to suffer. After a certain point of critical mass, when it comes to tech, oftentimes you can't just take your business elsewhere any more.

spaetzleesser 6y ago

"shareholders are the only people that companies are legally beholden to" I don't think that's actual true. As far as I know the only legal obligation a company has is to conduct lawful business.

tomc1985 6y ago
Shareholders can sue if they do not think their interests are being properly represented/manifested. They can also arbitrarily shuffle senior management as they see fit Neither customers nor employees can do that
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- bdowling 6y ago
  > Shareholders can sue if they do not think their interests are being properly represented/manifested. In general, shareholder recourse is limited to electing a new board that will do what those shareholders want. The exceptions are cases where the actions of the corporation or board are discriminatory to some shareholders, or where there is fraud or self-dealing by insiders (e.g., shareholder derivative suits). > They can also arbitrarily shuffle senior management as they see fit Not directly. Shareholders elect the board, which then chooses the managers (CEO, etc.) who actually run the company. Shareholders usually only elect board members once per year at the annual meeting. So it’s not arbitrary. > Neither customers nor employees can do that This is true. Customers and employees don’t direct the corporation the same ways that the owners (shareholders) do. However, customers can boycott and employees can strike. Those can be effective ways to influence the direction of a corporation. Also, customers can sue for other things (e.g., fraud or malpractice), as can employees (e.g., employment discrimination). And any injured third party can sue the corporation.
  - tomc1985 6y ago
    You are correct, I am getting my wires crossed a bit.
FridgeSeal 6y ago
Whilst it may not be technically true, most companies behave as if it is.

cringepirate 6y ago

No you got it the wrong way around. The power is in the hands of the user. > That will never happen as long as shareholders are the only people that companies are legally beholden to The user has a choice not to use products that are made by companies that don't respect them. > That will never happen as long as developers insist that their happiness is more immportant than that of their users The user can simply stop using the software if the developer doesn't respect their time (happiness is a completely subjective property dependant on the individual). So I say this will never happen while people won't actively move for alternatives and put up with crappy products. I made the effort to stop using products from large companies that don't respect my privacy and don't respect freedom of speech of their users. So whenever possible I don't use any products from the large tech companies. If people can't be bothered and choose to be ignorant, they deserve what they get.

Sabinus 6y ago
Governments are supposed to intervene in markets to keep them stable, functional and ethical. Hand-balling all market regulation to ethical individual consumption isn't workable for many industries where companies can monopolize, capture regulation and sway public opinion with advertising campaigns.
- cringepirate 6y ago
  Unfortunately I should have expected a reply such as this. Everything is seen as a all or nothing proposition. I think it is pretty obvious that if companies are abusing their position to that extent an appropriate governing body should step in. However there are going to be issues that won't fall under such a remit. Also just because the government/regulator is failing to step in, doesn't mean you can't be doing something yourself. I was getting very frustrated with Google and its products. So I decided to stop using them whenever possible. As for moving away from industry giants, this works. Firefox (back in the early 2000s) chipped away at IE's monopoly and broke the stagnation.
tomc1985 6y ago
> If people can't be bothered and choose to be ignorant, they deserve what they get. The problem is that those that do care also have to suffer. After a certain point of critical mass, when it comes to tech, oftentimes you can't just take your business elsewhere any more.