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In Windows the old method was installing exe files, and it remains the most popular - but otherwise the only app store worth mentioning is the MS one (on Steam

by yyyk 6y ago

In Windows the old method was installing exe files, and it remains the most popular - but otherwise the only app store worth mentioning is the MS one (on Steam in a moment). In Linux, package managers can and do include other apps (not all of course), and just about everything that can be installed from them gets priority from users - and alternative repos get the scraps. The option isn't hidden on android at all, it's dead simple. There's a warning dialog, but I can live with that. * Steam is a very specialized case: Not quite an app store [Apple credits itself with inventing the App Store, despite Steam existing since 2003, so Apple agrees with me on this], but they all but created the Linux game market, and got in before the Windows Store was created. Yea, if you create the market or get in in advance or on stuff the official store doesn't include, you can survive, but the general rule is that the official App Store wins. People are upset with Google, but it's not so much about the Play Store. And Apple doesn't need to be as lax as Google - If they had let go of the anti-competitive behaviour and had a slightly less explotitive fee structure people could live with the App Store being only store allowed. It's Apple being very greedy that led to the calls to, well, reduce Apple's permissions (I couldn't resist).

bogwog 6y ago
> The option isn't hidden on android at all, it's dead simple. There's a warning dialog, but I can live with that. I can't. If I'm going to distribute my apps outside of Google Play, I need to tell my potential customers to crawl through their phone's settings page, clicking through various menus, then ignore the scary warnings that strongly imply I'm about to infect them with malware and steal all of their personal data. And I would have to do that in every single language I want to support, and of course would lose sales from people who don't want to bother following these long instructions, especially since they have to close their web browser (and hide the written instructions) to actually do it. And I also have increased support costs because I need to respond to emails from people who couldn't figure out how to do it (in all languages), and I have to constantly worry about being blocked by the "Play Protect" program, which scans apps installed outside of Google Play, sends them to Google's servers, and then decides to block them at Google's discretion. And if I happen to get big enough to where I potentially become a competitive threat to Google, then I have to worry about their "white hat" hit squad finding exploits in my software and sending it to major news outlets to ~~tarnish my reputation~~ I mean protect users. Or I can avoid all of those Google-created problems by giving Google 30% of my business. So while technically you could distribute your apps outside of Google Play, it is not practical at all thanks to all of the anti-competitive barriers Google has put up. Anyone who thinks that Android is a healthy environment for competition is being naive, or has no experience with consumer products. > * Steam is a very specialized case: Not quite an app store [Apple credits itself with inventing the App Store, despite Steam existing since 2003, so Apple agrees with me on this], but they all but created the Linux game market, and got in before the Windows Store was created. Yea, if you create the market or get in in advance or on stuff the official store doesn't include, you can survive, but the general rule is that the official App Store wins. What do you mean? Steam is 100% an app store. It's a store where they sell applications (although mostly games). Also, Steam was not at all the first game/app store on Windows or Linux. It was simply the best back in the day; so good in fact that it beat straight up piracy. Even today they're pretty great, despite the 30% cut (although that situation is completely different to the one Apple and Google are in)
- yyyk 6y ago
  I guess I'm so used to dismissing the "Play Protect" dialog I completely forgot about it, you're right about it, it is annoying. But I think asking the user to signal agreement before installing and especially allowing another app store is the right way, given how sensitive it is. Maybe it should be made easier, but it's far less onerous than the Apple case. Steam doesn't do the API review/sandboxing component of App Stores. An installed game technically has access to everything. Even Linux packaging has API review (due to open source) and modern packaging often has integration with AppArmor/SELinux. Steam are essential for Linux gaming, but I wish they improved their deployment to be more secure.
  - bogwog 6y ago
    > But I think asking the user to signal agreement before installing and especially allowing another app store is the right way, given how sensitive it is. Maybe it should be made easier, but it's far less onerous than the Apple case. I don't think so. That's mostly FUD in my opinion, since apps installed from Google Play can do the exact same amount of evil stuff as anything downloaded from an external site. Since Android/iOS already have sandboxing and per-app permissions, the only benefit to having a single distributor is the potential of having that application scanned for malware before you downloaded it. The same thing can be accomplished without a separate antivirus app, like you'd see on Windows. In fact, I think Windows Defender is a good model for how Google and Apple could provide the same (purported) security guarantees while still allowing third-party stores. Play Protect (I think) does that already, but it also mainly functions as a wall of scary warnings/deterrent to competition. > Steam doesn't do the API review/sandboxing component of App Stores. An installed game technically has access to everything. Even Linux packaging has API review (due to open source) and modern packaging often has integration with AppArmor/SELinux. Steam are essential for Linux gaming, but I wish they improved their deployment to be more secure. True that Steam is kind of questionable when it comes to security, but that's more the fault of the desktop operating systems which don't have sandboxing built-in. I too would like to see increased usage for things like SELinux/AppArmor, but that seems a bit hopeless. Valve can't just ship a kernel module alongside Steam, and I doubt Canonical is going to start shipping SELinux with Ubuntu Desktop (the support forums would explode). I think Microsoft added sandboxing features to UWP apps, but that's its own can of worms. If you make a UWP app, you need to distribute it through the Microsoft app store, and you need to deal with a lot of the same BS that Apple and Google are being sued for.

by yyyk 6y ago

bogwog 6y ago

> The option isn't hidden on android at all, it's dead simple. There's a warning dialog, but I can live with that. I can't. If I'm going to distribute my apps outside of Google Play, I need to tell my potential customers to crawl through their phone's settings page, clicking through various menus, then ignore the scary warnings that strongly imply I'm about to infect them with malware and steal all of their personal data. And I would have to do that in every single language I want to support, and of course would lose sales from people who don't want to bother following these long instructions, especially since they have to close their web browser (and hide the written instructions) to actually do it. And I also have increased support costs because I need to respond to emails from people who couldn't figure out how to do it (in all languages), and I have to constantly worry about being blocked by the "Play Protect" program, which scans apps installed outside of Google Play, sends them to Google's servers, and then decides to block them at Google's discretion. And if I happen to get big enough to where I potentially become a competitive threat to Google, then I have to worry about their "white hat" hit squad finding exploits in my software and sending it to major news outlets to ~~tarnish my reputation~~ I mean protect users. Or I can avoid all of those Google-created problems by giving Google 30% of my business. So while technically you could distribute your apps outside of Google Play, it is not practical at all thanks to all of the anti-competitive barriers Google has put up. Anyone who thinks that Android is a healthy environment for competition is being naive, or has no experience with consumer products. > * Steam is a very specialized case: Not quite an app store [Apple credits itself with inventing the App Store, despite Steam existing since 2003, so Apple agrees with me on this], but they all but created the Linux game market, and got in before the Windows Store was created. Yea, if you create the market or get in in advance or on stuff the official store doesn't include, you can survive, but the general rule is that the official App Store wins. What do you mean? Steam is 100% an app store. It's a store where they sell applications (although mostly games). Also, Steam was not at all the first game/app store on Windows or Linux. It was simply the best back in the day; so good in fact that it beat straight up piracy. Even today they're pretty great, despite the 30% cut (although that situation is completely different to the one Apple and Google are in)

yyyk 6y ago
I guess I'm so used to dismissing the "Play Protect" dialog I completely forgot about it, you're right about it, it is annoying. But I think asking the user to signal agreement before installing and especially allowing another app store is the right way, given how sensitive it is. Maybe it should be made easier, but it's far less onerous than the Apple case. Steam doesn't do the API review/sandboxing component of App Stores. An installed game technically has access to everything. Even Linux packaging has API review (due to open source) and modern packaging often has integration with AppArmor/SELinux. Steam are essential for Linux gaming, but I wish they improved their deployment to be more secure.
- bogwog 6y ago
  > But I think asking the user to signal agreement before installing and especially allowing another app store is the right way, given how sensitive it is. Maybe it should be made easier, but it's far less onerous than the Apple case. I don't think so. That's mostly FUD in my opinion, since apps installed from Google Play can do the exact same amount of evil stuff as anything downloaded from an external site. Since Android/iOS already have sandboxing and per-app permissions, the only benefit to having a single distributor is the potential of having that application scanned for malware before you downloaded it. The same thing can be accomplished without a separate antivirus app, like you'd see on Windows. In fact, I think Windows Defender is a good model for how Google and Apple could provide the same (purported) security guarantees while still allowing third-party stores. Play Protect (I think) does that already, but it also mainly functions as a wall of scary warnings/deterrent to competition. > Steam doesn't do the API review/sandboxing component of App Stores. An installed game technically has access to everything. Even Linux packaging has API review (due to open source) and modern packaging often has integration with AppArmor/SELinux. Steam are essential for Linux gaming, but I wish they improved their deployment to be more secure. True that Steam is kind of questionable when it comes to security, but that's more the fault of the desktop operating systems which don't have sandboxing built-in. I too would like to see increased usage for things like SELinux/AppArmor, but that seems a bit hopeless. Valve can't just ship a kernel module alongside Steam, and I doubt Canonical is going to start shipping SELinux with Ubuntu Desktop (the support forums would explode). I think Microsoft added sandboxing features to UWP apps, but that's its own can of worms. If you make a UWP app, you need to distribute it through the Microsoft app store, and you need to deal with a lot of the same BS that Apple and Google are being sued for.