14 ms·

Eh, artists have bills to pay. I try to buy e-books to support my favorite sci-fi authors, but it feels a bit silly that downloading the epub from libgen is lit

by f00zz 6y ago

Eh, artists have bills to pay. I try to buy e-books to support my favorite sci-fi authors, but it feels a bit silly that downloading the epub from libgen is literally less hassle than buying it on Google Play.

rbanffy 6y ago
And this is one of the key selling points of piracy - having the product you want easily available while the other options (physical disk, download) may not be available in your region.
- johnchristopher 6y ago
  Yeah, no. When I was a teen and wanted pirated games I had to put a lot of time into it (downloading/getting the CD's) then hunt for working cracks and then later deal with the consequences of installing cracks. My time was free but as an adult now I could never justify spending evenings to make pirated games work. Today's piracy is way more easier than piracy 15 or 25 years ago. The key selling point of piracy is that it's free.
  - airstrike 6y ago
    > but as an adult now I could never justify spending evenings to make pirated games work. Side note: I agree entirely but I do miss those evenings! Even legit games were such a chore to install that when they finally worked, you were swept by a wave of pure joy. Looking at you, Little Big Adventure 2! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Big_Adventure_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Big_Adventure_2
    - johnchristopher 6y ago
      That's one thing that was bugging me. I used to wonder why I missed playing video games and at the same time very few games were entertaining to me anymore. I think it's because what I am missing is the evening of care-free tinkering, of having good time with friends, of having a wide horizon ; I am missing that mood and ambiance, not the gaming part, I miss how I was looking at the world.
      - airstrike 6y ago
        Couldn't have said it better – I feel as if I wrote the very comment I'm replying to. My solution has been to play old classics that transport me back to those times and those are so much more enjoyable than most new titles.
  - rusk 6y ago
    > Today's piracy is way more easier than piracy 15 or 25 years ago. Not exactly... you still need specialist equipment to do it ... even something like the analogue hole is too inconvenient for the typical user. Even for me it’s just not worth the hassle. Downloading is easy enough for video and music but you still have to find the dodgy sites (in my jurisdiction thus requires some ducking and diving). In some way it’s easier in some ways it’s harder. It’s an arms race and has been ever thus.
  - Karunamon 6y ago
    I've probably spent more total time in the rigamarole surrounding legitimately purchased games (DRM incompatibilities and performance issues, activation servers being down, make and account and log in and click through our EULA, etc) than I have with issues surrounding cracked games. Cracking games from a user standpoint is usually a process of downloading a torrent, waiting a bit, then replacing a handful of files in the install directory the first time, and then you're usually not bothered again. Some include an installer that handles this for you.
    - johnchristopher 6y ago
      I remember how shock I was that my legal copy of 98 was as buggy as my cracked one :D.
  - megous 6y ago
    Even in the days of MS-DOS games, I could just buy a CD for $2 from a contact (he'd ride his bike to me and deliver them), it would be full of games that you could just extract and play, no installer involved. It became slightly harder for a period of time when CD sized games became common, and Internet speeds have not yet caught up.
  - a1369209993 6y ago
    When I wanted non-pirated games I had to put a lot of time into it (pysically transport the CD's) then hunt for bugfixes and workarounds to get it running on my operating system and then later deal with the consequences of embedded malware (DRM) and workarounds that interfered with other software. Today's piracy is way more easier than any method of acquiring such games 15 or 25 years ago.
    - johnchristopher 6y ago
      > When I wanted non-pirated games I had to put a lot of time into it (pysically transport the CD's) Physically transporting the CD's from the game shop (which was an hour errand to me) doesn't compare to downloading for days or hunting that guy whose brother maybe had it on a random CD in his room.
      - a1369209993 6y ago
        That's fair; different people have different experiences. I have a long history of setting things up so that downloads happen in the background while I'm doing something else, and that rarely took longer than arranging a trip into town anyway. My other complaints still apply though.
  - rbanffy 6y ago
    > I had to put a lot of time into it (downloading/getting the CD's) then hunt for working cracks and then later deal with the consequences of installing cracks. Did you enjoy the process? A lot of people do it for fun.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  It was the insight that "Piracy is a service problem" that led Valve to create Steam.
matheusmoreira 6y ago
> Eh, artists have bills to pay. So? That doesn't change anything. The needs of creators cannot override our need for computing freedom. Enabling creators to pay their bills by charging money for data will have serious consequences for society in the long term. If they have bills to pay, they can find something else to do. Ideally, they should get paid for the act of creating rather than the final result. > it feels a bit silly that downloading the epub from libgen is literally less hassle than buying it on Google Play. "Piracy" is actually the superior service. It's how everything should work. The copyright industry simply cannot compete and will never be able to compete. The only way they can win is by making the competition illegal.
- scarface74 6y ago
  Are you at all involved with software development? How do you feel about people breaking the GPL?
  - tauwauwau 6y ago
    I'm not arguing in favor of piracy, but isn't GPL anti copyright (copyleft)
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - jasonlotito 6y ago
      Fair question. =) No, it's not. "Copyleft licenses exist within the legal structure of copyrights. Despite what the name implies, copyleft isn't about abolishing copyrights. Rather, copyleft licenses are a subset of copyright licenses, and the goal is to restore freedom to users." https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/copyleft-copyright-key-concepts/ https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/copyleft-copyright-key-concept...
      - tauwauwau 6y ago
        You are right, thanks for clarifying. I asked that question as the GP made the case that breaking GPL is equivalent to pirating (breaking any other copyright). But GPL ensures a resource is always shareable and anyone who tries to break it would be limiting shareability of the resource, essentially it would be opposite of piracy.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
> Eh, artists have bills to pay Indeed, and we should support those who create the works we enjoy, but consider that the model of buying individual works from a publisher is rooted in the obsolete requirement to create a physical good upon which the work is distributed. Given that we now live in an age where the cost of distribution is effectively $0, perhaps we need to find a new model for compensating creative works. Personally, I'm a big fan of things like Patreon, which let me support people who's work I enjoy more-or-less directly and allows creators to keep their creations free for all to enjoy.
- LexGray 6y ago
  If the stated goal is that artists only deserve what I want to pay and there is too much graft and payment friction with conglomerates shouldn’t an ethical fan/pirate site always link to the artists Patreon?
- viraptor 6y ago
  The fun thing is that's pretty much how the classical composers worked in the past, just with a single/few rich patrons per artist rather than a number of people chipping in.
- f00zz 6y ago
  I prefer to pay once for the finished product, as opposed to paying regularly through something like Patreon. Maybe I'm cheap. Also, in the case of literature I'm not paying just the author. Editors and proofreaders make all the difference: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2013/03/why-i-dont-self-publish.html http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2013/03/why-i-do...
philipov 6y ago
Copyright law has a place, but as it currently stands, it doesn't protect independent artists sufficiently, while giving large media firms disproportionate power. This ultimately hurts small content producers a lot more than it helps them, because they have to compete with companies much larger than them that can afford to use their economies of scale to bully independent artists into submission. The fact that it's so much hassle to buy something just goes to show that Google has no incentive to compete on product, where the product is the marketplace itself. Piracy is an indication that the market has failed to produce a satisfactory distribution mechanism, and allowing large corporations to use legal action to shelter themselves from having to improve their offering hurts both consumers and small businesses. "Piracy is a service problem." - Gabe Newell
- matheusmoreira 6y ago
  > Copyright law has a place Yes, in a pre-computer and pre-internet society. It has no place in the 21st century. > allowing large corporations to use legal action to shelter themselves from having to improve their offering hurts both consumers and small businesses You know what sucks? Wanting to buy something, being willing to pay for it and finding out that what I want is not available to me. Because of copyright. Every day I log into Netflix and search for something I want to watch, Netflix autocompletes the movie's name and yet it doesn't actually show up in the results. It's there, just not available to me. I lost count of the number of lesser known works I wanted to view but couldn't because they aren't popular and therefore not profitable. I don't even try to find them anymore. Somehow, copyright stops the service from offering the content to me. I suppose I'm part of some irrelevant market segment they don't care about. So it's not just a service problem.
  - s1artibartfast 6y ago
    >You know what sucks? Wanting to buy something, being willing to pay for it and finding out that what I want is not available to me. Because of copyright. This seems to me to be a very strange mindset. Someone else has created content you want, is not offered for sale to you, so you it is in your right to seal it? What makes this OK and where does it end?
a1369209993 6y ago
That's a fair point, but the problem is that buying it on Google Play (or rather, providing money to the actual person who created it) is too difficult, not that downloading the epub from libgen is too easy.
EGreg 6y ago
We wouldnt have this conversation if UBI paid for all basic needs. Hey everyone, I would like to have the government enforce my idea of ownership, and come after them for copying something. Because without owning everhthing why would scientists, open source developers and wikipedians and creative commons people and folk musicians ever produce anything?
jandrese 6y ago
For example, on a recommendation I decided to read Gateway by Frederick Pohl. I like ebooks because it lets me read without keeping the light on and disturbing my wife. First stop was Overdrive, no dice but that's not uncommon. Their selection is pretty slim. Next was Hoopla, but also struck out. So I tried the Kindle Store. I found reviews about people reading it, but no copies for sale. B&Ns store had the same problem. Not available on Google Play. So I went to the wider internet but came up completely dry on legitimate purchase options. WTF. This novel won a Hugo why is it so damn hard to find? Why did the ebook version disappear from all legitimate vendors? Is there some dark secret that they're trying to hide? Of course if I were willing to torrent it I'd have a perfect copy that I could read anywhere in less than 5 minutes.

by f00zz 6y ago

rbanffy 6y ago

And this is one of the key selling points of piracy - having the product you want easily available while the other options (physical disk, download) may not be available in your region.

johnchristopher 6y ago
Yeah, no. When I was a teen and wanted pirated games I had to put a lot of time into it (downloading/getting the CD's) then hunt for working cracks and then later deal with the consequences of installing cracks. My time was free but as an adult now I could never justify spending evenings to make pirated games work. Today's piracy is way more easier than piracy 15 or 25 years ago. The key selling point of piracy is that it's free.
- airstrike 6y ago
  > but as an adult now I could never justify spending evenings to make pirated games work. Side note: I agree entirely but I do miss those evenings! Even legit games were such a chore to install that when they finally worked, you were swept by a wave of pure joy. Looking at you, Little Big Adventure 2! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Big_Adventure_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Big_Adventure_2
  - johnchristopher 6y ago
    That's one thing that was bugging me. I used to wonder why I missed playing video games and at the same time very few games were entertaining to me anymore. I think it's because what I am missing is the evening of care-free tinkering, of having good time with friends, of having a wide horizon ; I am missing that mood and ambiance, not the gaming part, I miss how I was looking at the world.
    - airstrike 6y ago
      Couldn't have said it better – I feel as if I wrote the very comment I'm replying to. My solution has been to play old classics that transport me back to those times and those are so much more enjoyable than most new titles.
- rusk 6y ago
  > Today's piracy is way more easier than piracy 15 or 25 years ago. Not exactly... you still need specialist equipment to do it ... even something like the analogue hole is too inconvenient for the typical user. Even for me it’s just not worth the hassle. Downloading is easy enough for video and music but you still have to find the dodgy sites (in my jurisdiction thus requires some ducking and diving). In some way it’s easier in some ways it’s harder. It’s an arms race and has been ever thus.
- Karunamon 6y ago
  I've probably spent more total time in the rigamarole surrounding legitimately purchased games (DRM incompatibilities and performance issues, activation servers being down, make and account and log in and click through our EULA, etc) than I have with issues surrounding cracked games. Cracking games from a user standpoint is usually a process of downloading a torrent, waiting a bit, then replacing a handful of files in the install directory the first time, and then you're usually not bothered again. Some include an installer that handles this for you.
  - johnchristopher 6y ago
    I remember how shock I was that my legal copy of 98 was as buggy as my cracked one :D.
- megous 6y ago
  Even in the days of MS-DOS games, I could just buy a CD for $2 from a contact (he'd ride his bike to me and deliver them), it would be full of games that you could just extract and play, no installer involved. It became slightly harder for a period of time when CD sized games became common, and Internet speeds have not yet caught up.
- a1369209993 6y ago
  When I wanted non-pirated games I had to put a lot of time into it (pysically transport the CD's) then hunt for bugfixes and workarounds to get it running on my operating system and then later deal with the consequences of embedded malware (DRM) and workarounds that interfered with other software. Today's piracy is way more easier than any method of acquiring such games 15 or 25 years ago.
  - johnchristopher 6y ago
    > When I wanted non-pirated games I had to put a lot of time into it (pysically transport the CD's) Physically transporting the CD's from the game shop (which was an hour errand to me) doesn't compare to downloading for days or hunting that guy whose brother maybe had it on a random CD in his room.
    - a1369209993 6y ago
      That's fair; different people have different experiences. I have a long history of setting things up so that downloads happen in the background while I'm doing something else, and that rarely took longer than arranging a trip into town anyway. My other complaints still apply though.
- rbanffy 6y ago
  > I had to put a lot of time into it (downloading/getting the CD's) then hunt for working cracks and then later deal with the consequences of installing cracks. Did you enjoy the process? A lot of people do it for fun.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
It was the insight that "Piracy is a service problem" that led Valve to create Steam.

matheusmoreira 6y ago

> Eh, artists have bills to pay. So? That doesn't change anything. The needs of creators cannot override our need for computing freedom. Enabling creators to pay their bills by charging money for data will have serious consequences for society in the long term. If they have bills to pay, they can find something else to do. Ideally, they should get paid for the act of creating rather than the final result. > it feels a bit silly that downloading the epub from libgen is literally less hassle than buying it on Google Play. "Piracy" is actually the superior service. It's how everything should work. The copyright industry simply cannot compete and will never be able to compete. The only way they can win is by making the competition illegal.

scarface74 6y ago
Are you at all involved with software development? How do you feel about people breaking the GPL?
- tauwauwau 6y ago
  I'm not arguing in favor of piracy, but isn't GPL anti copyright (copyleft)
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - jasonlotito 6y ago
    Fair question. =) No, it's not. "Copyleft licenses exist within the legal structure of copyrights. Despite what the name implies, copyleft isn't about abolishing copyrights. Rather, copyleft licenses are a subset of copyright licenses, and the goal is to restore freedom to users." https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/copyleft-copyright-key-concepts/ https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/copyleft-copyright-key-concept...
    - tauwauwau 6y ago
      You are right, thanks for clarifying. I asked that question as the GP made the case that breaking GPL is equivalent to pirating (breaking any other copyright). But GPL ensures a resource is always shareable and anyone who tries to break it would be limiting shareability of the resource, essentially it would be opposite of piracy.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago

> Eh, artists have bills to pay Indeed, and we should support those who create the works we enjoy, but consider that the model of buying individual works from a publisher is rooted in the obsolete requirement to create a physical good upon which the work is distributed. Given that we now live in an age where the cost of distribution is effectively $0, perhaps we need to find a new model for compensating creative works. Personally, I'm a big fan of things like Patreon, which let me support people who's work I enjoy more-or-less directly and allows creators to keep their creations free for all to enjoy.

LexGray 6y ago
If the stated goal is that artists only deserve what I want to pay and there is too much graft and payment friction with conglomerates shouldn’t an ethical fan/pirate site always link to the artists Patreon?
viraptor 6y ago
The fun thing is that's pretty much how the classical composers worked in the past, just with a single/few rich patrons per artist rather than a number of people chipping in.
f00zz 6y ago
I prefer to pay once for the finished product, as opposed to paying regularly through something like Patreon. Maybe I'm cheap. Also, in the case of literature I'm not paying just the author. Editors and proofreaders make all the difference: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2013/03/why-i-dont-self-publish.html http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2013/03/why-i-do...

philipov 6y ago

Copyright law has a place, but as it currently stands, it doesn't protect independent artists sufficiently, while giving large media firms disproportionate power. This ultimately hurts small content producers a lot more than it helps them, because they have to compete with companies much larger than them that can afford to use their economies of scale to bully independent artists into submission. The fact that it's so much hassle to buy something just goes to show that Google has no incentive to compete on product, where the product is the marketplace itself. Piracy is an indication that the market has failed to produce a satisfactory distribution mechanism, and allowing large corporations to use legal action to shelter themselves from having to improve their offering hurts both consumers and small businesses. "Piracy is a service problem." - Gabe Newell

matheusmoreira 6y ago
> Copyright law has a place Yes, in a pre-computer and pre-internet society. It has no place in the 21st century. > allowing large corporations to use legal action to shelter themselves from having to improve their offering hurts both consumers and small businesses You know what sucks? Wanting to buy something, being willing to pay for it and finding out that what I want is not available to me. Because of copyright. Every day I log into Netflix and search for something I want to watch, Netflix autocompletes the movie's name and yet it doesn't actually show up in the results. It's there, just not available to me. I lost count of the number of lesser known works I wanted to view but couldn't because they aren't popular and therefore not profitable. I don't even try to find them anymore. Somehow, copyright stops the service from offering the content to me. I suppose I'm part of some irrelevant market segment they don't care about. So it's not just a service problem.
- s1artibartfast 6y ago
  >You know what sucks? Wanting to buy something, being willing to pay for it and finding out that what I want is not available to me. Because of copyright. This seems to me to be a very strange mindset. Someone else has created content you want, is not offered for sale to you, so you it is in your right to seal it? What makes this OK and where does it end?

a1369209993 6y ago

That's a fair point, but the problem is that buying it on Google Play (or rather, providing money to the actual person who created it) is too difficult, not that downloading the epub from libgen is too easy.

EGreg 6y ago

We wouldnt have this conversation if UBI paid for all basic needs. Hey everyone, I would like to have the government enforce my idea of ownership, and come after them for copying something. Because without owning everhthing why would scientists, open source developers and wikipedians and creative commons people and folk musicians ever produce anything?

jandrese 6y ago

For example, on a recommendation I decided to read Gateway by Frederick Pohl. I like ebooks because it lets me read without keeping the light on and disturbing my wife. First stop was Overdrive, no dice but that's not uncommon. Their selection is pretty slim. Next was Hoopla, but also struck out. So I tried the Kindle Store. I found reviews about people reading it, but no copies for sale. B&Ns store had the same problem. Not available on Google Play. So I went to the wider internet but came up completely dry on legitimate purchase options. WTF. This novel won a Hugo why is it so damn hard to find? Why did the ebook version disappear from all legitimate vendors? Is there some dark secret that they're trying to hide? Of course if I were willing to torrent it I'd have a perfect copy that I could read anywhere in less than 5 minutes.