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> Imagine not being relegated to the sidewalk Pedestrians don't mix any better with (electric) bikes that are trying to get places than they do with cars. Reas

> Imagine not being relegated to the sidewalk Pedestrians don't mix any better with (electric) bikes that are trying to get places than they do with cars. Reasonably broad and well-maintained sidewalks are essential for everyone's comfort and safety.

sudosysgen 6y ago
In practice, they do. Bikes are much smaller, much nimbler and much slower than cars. Unless the street is completely packed with pedestrians, fully pedestrian streets work well with ebikes. This is from experience riding bikes and having people ride bikes next to me in fully pedestrian streets as dreamt about by GP.
- wool_gather 6y ago
  I have a very different experience than you. I ride or walk everywhere I go. Bikes may be slower than cars, but -- when they're being used for commuting, not toodling around on a Sunday afternoon -- they are much, much faster than pedestrians. When I'm walking, I don't want bikes whizzing by me at three times my speed. When I'm biking, I don't want to be constantly worrying about people on foot -- or their kids, or their dogs -- suddenly stopping or changing direction without looking.
  - lkbm 6y ago
    There's one bike-and-ped bridge I used to cross for work, and as a cyclist I did find pedestrians very annoying--they take 90 degree turns across the trail without looking at all -- but that's only one very crowded section. (and as a pedestrian, the cyclists were never a problem for me there.) But that's one crowded bridge. On most roads, people walking in the roads instead of the sidewalk wouldn't matter to me. You could 10x the number of pedestrians and it'd be fine in most of my city (Austin TX). Maybe that'd change if it were pedestrian-friendly and we ended up with 50x the number of people walking, but this is a problem I dream of.
  - egypturnash 6y ago
    "having a bell, ringing it when you overtake pedestrians, and waving and saying thanks" helps from both sides of this, IMHO. Bonus points if you maybe holler "cute dog!", "great hat!", or some other compliment instead of "thanks!". I, too, ride or walk everywhere I go, and have several shared cyclist/pedestrian paths that I use a lot. My least favorite thing to encounter on the path, walking or riding, is that asshole with the multi-thousand-dollar racing bike and no bell who just blazes past me with no warning. Fuck that guy, "share the road" works both ways.
    - wool_gather 6y ago
      Yeah, I will go out of my way to avoid shared paths, so I guess we just have different tolerances for these things. :) I do have a bell and a voice and I'm ready to use them if needed, but I'm happier when they're irrelevant. I take pedestrian priority and safety seriously when I'm riding (as I hope others do for me when I'm walking), so if I can ride in an area where I have less of that worry, I will.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    I think you might underestimate how large streets are and overestimate the number of bikes and pedestrians.
    - wool_gather 6y ago
      We're in the context of "no sidewalks" that the first post in this thread opened up.
      - sudosysgen 6y ago
        Sure. Getting rid of sidewalks means that the entire street becomes a sidewalk. This means that traffic becomes much more distributed amongst parallel streets, and that pedestrian density drastically falls as a result by an order of magnitude or more. The result is that cohabitation between pedestrians and cyclists becomes much easier, as I have noticed when my city did exactly this as a result of the pandemic.
miketery 6y ago
Personal EVs such as scooters, EUCs, bicycles, and non electric options are smaller, have more throughput, and are less dangerous. Imagine a 2 lane road, turned into a park with smaller two lanes for 2 way bike traffic. Just beautiful.
- jeffbee 6y ago
  Indeed, a two-way bikeway takes up the same space that car drivers consider to be one lane, so you can take a two-lane road and convert it to a bikeway with spacious sidewalks. As a bonus, such a road will have throughput that car drivers cannot even dream of. https://twitter.com/Cycling_Embassy/status/1298153135127646208 https://twitter.com/Cycling_Embassy/status/12981531351276462...
pkulak 6y ago
When I'm walking with my 8-year-old, we both scramble right the hell out of the street if there's a car anywhere in our vision. Neither of us could care less about a bike somewhere. It sure doesn't feel like we're being irrational.
- jackyinger 6y ago
  Well, I think bikers have a lot more incentive not to hit people from a personal damage point of view. I mean they’re about as vulnerable as a pedestrian in a collision. So I think you’re thinking right about the risks.
  - estebank 6y ago
    Not to mention the speeds and mass involved, and visibility that a cyclist has vs a driver (without even starting to consider the vehicles that are popular in the US).
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
tesseract 6y ago
Yes! Sidewalks have existed for literally millennia, for a reason. They are not a newfangled invention that is only necessary because of cars.
unethical_ban 6y ago
Yes, they do. Do they mix perfectly? No. But a person + 30 lb bike at 20 mph is safer for pedestrians in a collision than 4000 lbs of rigid steel and plastic at the same speed or faster. Note also that bike paths and rights of way are not designed in mostof the US to prioritize bikes OR walkers. Imagine if roads and roundabouts were designed exclusively for bikes and pedestrians.

sudosysgen 6y ago

In practice, they do. Bikes are much smaller, much nimbler and much slower than cars. Unless the street is completely packed with pedestrians, fully pedestrian streets work well with ebikes. This is from experience riding bikes and having people ride bikes next to me in fully pedestrian streets as dreamt about by GP.

wool_gather 6y ago
I have a very different experience than you. I ride or walk everywhere I go. Bikes may be slower than cars, but -- when they're being used for commuting, not toodling around on a Sunday afternoon -- they are much, much faster than pedestrians. When I'm walking, I don't want bikes whizzing by me at three times my speed. When I'm biking, I don't want to be constantly worrying about people on foot -- or their kids, or their dogs -- suddenly stopping or changing direction without looking.
- lkbm 6y ago
  There's one bike-and-ped bridge I used to cross for work, and as a cyclist I did find pedestrians very annoying--they take 90 degree turns across the trail without looking at all -- but that's only one very crowded section. (and as a pedestrian, the cyclists were never a problem for me there.) But that's one crowded bridge. On most roads, people walking in the roads instead of the sidewalk wouldn't matter to me. You could 10x the number of pedestrians and it'd be fine in most of my city (Austin TX). Maybe that'd change if it were pedestrian-friendly and we ended up with 50x the number of people walking, but this is a problem I dream of.
- egypturnash 6y ago
  "having a bell, ringing it when you overtake pedestrians, and waving and saying thanks" helps from both sides of this, IMHO. Bonus points if you maybe holler "cute dog!", "great hat!", or some other compliment instead of "thanks!". I, too, ride or walk everywhere I go, and have several shared cyclist/pedestrian paths that I use a lot. My least favorite thing to encounter on the path, walking or riding, is that asshole with the multi-thousand-dollar racing bike and no bell who just blazes past me with no warning. Fuck that guy, "share the road" works both ways.
  - wool_gather 6y ago
    Yeah, I will go out of my way to avoid shared paths, so I guess we just have different tolerances for these things. :) I do have a bell and a voice and I'm ready to use them if needed, but I'm happier when they're irrelevant. I take pedestrian priority and safety seriously when I'm riding (as I hope others do for me when I'm walking), so if I can ride in an area where I have less of that worry, I will.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  I think you might underestimate how large streets are and overestimate the number of bikes and pedestrians.
  - wool_gather 6y ago
    We're in the context of "no sidewalks" that the first post in this thread opened up.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      Sure. Getting rid of sidewalks means that the entire street becomes a sidewalk. This means that traffic becomes much more distributed amongst parallel streets, and that pedestrian density drastically falls as a result by an order of magnitude or more. The result is that cohabitation between pedestrians and cyclists becomes much easier, as I have noticed when my city did exactly this as a result of the pandemic.

miketery 6y ago

Personal EVs such as scooters, EUCs, bicycles, and non electric options are smaller, have more throughput, and are less dangerous. Imagine a 2 lane road, turned into a park with smaller two lanes for 2 way bike traffic. Just beautiful.

jeffbee 6y ago
Indeed, a two-way bikeway takes up the same space that car drivers consider to be one lane, so you can take a two-lane road and convert it to a bikeway with spacious sidewalks. As a bonus, such a road will have throughput that car drivers cannot even dream of. https://twitter.com/Cycling_Embassy/status/1298153135127646208 https://twitter.com/Cycling_Embassy/status/12981531351276462...

pkulak 6y ago

When I'm walking with my 8-year-old, we both scramble right the hell out of the street if there's a car anywhere in our vision. Neither of us could care less about a bike somewhere. It sure doesn't feel like we're being irrational.

jackyinger 6y ago
Well, I think bikers have a lot more incentive not to hit people from a personal damage point of view. I mean they’re about as vulnerable as a pedestrian in a collision. So I think you’re thinking right about the risks.
- estebank 6y ago
  Not to mention the speeds and mass involved, and visibility that a cyclist has vs a driver (without even starting to consider the vehicles that are popular in the US).
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

tesseract 6y ago

Yes! Sidewalks have existed for literally millennia, for a reason. They are not a newfangled invention that is only necessary because of cars.

unethical_ban 6y ago

Yes, they do. Do they mix perfectly? No. But a person + 30 lb bike at 20 mph is safer for pedestrians in a collision than 4000 lbs of rigid steel and plastic at the same speed or faster. Note also that bike paths and rights of way are not designed in mostof the US to prioritize bikes OR walkers. Imagine if roads and roundabouts were designed exclusively for bikes and pedestrians.