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I agree with some of your foundational sentiments, but as long as we're deviating from the topic of discussion, Poland's hands have been far from clean, too, th

I agree with some of your foundational sentiments, but as long as we're deviating from the topic of discussion, Poland's hands have been far from clean, too, the past 100 years. What Poles did to European Jews was truly horrific (US immorally turned many of them away, but we didn't slaughter them wholesale like many Poles did in places like Jedwabne). By the way, as you likely know, it's illegal now in your country to even mention the fact that Poles willingly participated in the Holocaust in such places (whereas I'm free to describe My Lai and Abu Ghraib). Right now, the US has power, and often misuses it just like Poland has at times when it has had power. China often misuses its power. It's almost like there's something to do with power, abuse, and corruption. > it is that US rallies for some causes where it seems to suit US interests Let me introduce you to the concept of the nation-state. > to get obsessed after this one when more kids are dying to malaria every single day or for multitude of other problems. For the same reason as we treat murder victims differently than people who die from some tragic but preventable disease. Are those two on the same moral plane to you? > validates the whole point that US doesn't like to acknowledge resentment it gets from most of the world Interestingly, the US is up and awake, yet you have not been downvoted into grey, and many of the comments disagreeing with you have been. So you were wrong here. Edit: To the folks downvoting because I mentioned downvotes, I respect and applaud your adherence to HN guidelines. But please be sure to downvote the parent comment for moral consistency, since he brought it up in the first place.

lmilcin 6y ago
I am well aware of my country's history. Do you know what happened in Jedwabne? That was not an organized nation state attack on its minority, it was pent up hate in the local population that was released with an aggreement of o Nazi occupation force because people felt they can do whatever they want and decided to act on their hatred. For hundreds of years Poland did not govern its own territory and was split between neighbors who were not interested in resolving any of the growing problems between minorities and poles. At the time of Jedwabne Poland as nation state did not exist, the government was truly symbolic, on emigration. Before II WW there was barely 20 years of Polish government during which time there was much other problems (ever heard of Russia invading Poland after WW1?) There was in fact a lot of racism towards Jews in that time but no organized efforts or pogroms. This only came after the government was removed and replaced by Nazi occupation. If you compare it to current US situation, if the government stopped working completely, I am sure as hell there would be civil war between white and black population. Without damper from effective government there would be no more civility that was here during Nazi occupation. Also, regardless, one nation state abusing power is no excuse for another doing the same. Resolving any kind of problem with a background of hostilities must start with ceasing of at least some of them. You can't keep escalating the conflict under pretense the other side did that in the past and call yourself peace force at the same time.
- monoideism 6y ago
  > Do you know what happened in Jedwabne? That was not an organized nation state attack on its minority, it was pent up hate in the local population that was released with an aggreement of o Nazi occupation force because people felt they can do whatever they want and decided to act on their hatred. Yes, I'm well aware. That's a perfect example of absolute power. The local populace were free to do as they wanted, with no constraints. BTW, do you know what happened in Iraq? It was "pent-up anger" about 9/11, directed at the wrong people. But as you say, none of this excuses Jedwabne or Iraq. > At the time of Jedwabne Poland as nation state did not exist, the government was truly symbolic, on emigration. Before II WW there was barely 20 years of Polish government during which time there was much other problems (ever heard of Russia invading Poland after WW1?) There was in fact a lot of racism towards Jews in that time but no organized efforts or pogroms. This only came after the government was removed and replaced by Nazi occupation. And I could come up with a bunch of excuses here for US behavior. BTW, claiming Poland was a "people" and not a "nation-state" is a complete cop-out for Poland's Holocaust atrocities. > If you compare it to current US situation, if the government stopped working completely, I am sure as hell there would be civil war between white and black population. No. Black US population is about 15%. It wouldn't be a civil war - it would be a massacre, which is why I and many others have been trying against all hope to calm down current tensions. I've worked in an "intersectional conflict zone" - I know what people can do to each other. It can absolutely happen in the US if we don't take care. > one nation state abusing power is no excuse for another doing the same. Yes, I totally agree. BTW, I noticed you didn't address any of my other points.
- shliachtx 6y ago
  > it was pent up hate in the local population that was released with an aggreement of o Nazi occupation force because people felt they can do whatever they want and decided to act on their hatred In my opinion much more damning than the actions of a government - not necessarily explicitly supported by the population.

lmilcin 6y ago

I am well aware of my country's history. Do you know what happened in Jedwabne? That was not an organized nation state attack on its minority, it was pent up hate in the local population that was released with an aggreement of o Nazi occupation force because people felt they can do whatever they want and decided to act on their hatred. For hundreds of years Poland did not govern its own territory and was split between neighbors who were not interested in resolving any of the growing problems between minorities and poles. At the time of Jedwabne Poland as nation state did not exist, the government was truly symbolic, on emigration. Before II WW there was barely 20 years of Polish government during which time there was much other problems (ever heard of Russia invading Poland after WW1?) There was in fact a lot of racism towards Jews in that time but no organized efforts or pogroms. This only came after the government was removed and replaced by Nazi occupation. If you compare it to current US situation, if the government stopped working completely, I am sure as hell there would be civil war between white and black population. Without damper from effective government there would be no more civility that was here during Nazi occupation. Also, regardless, one nation state abusing power is no excuse for another doing the same. Resolving any kind of problem with a background of hostilities must start with ceasing of at least some of them. You can't keep escalating the conflict under pretense the other side did that in the past and call yourself peace force at the same time.

monoideism 6y ago
> Do you know what happened in Jedwabne? That was not an organized nation state attack on its minority, it was pent up hate in the local population that was released with an aggreement of o Nazi occupation force because people felt they can do whatever they want and decided to act on their hatred. Yes, I'm well aware. That's a perfect example of absolute power. The local populace were free to do as they wanted, with no constraints. BTW, do you know what happened in Iraq? It was "pent-up anger" about 9/11, directed at the wrong people. But as you say, none of this excuses Jedwabne or Iraq. > At the time of Jedwabne Poland as nation state did not exist, the government was truly symbolic, on emigration. Before II WW there was barely 20 years of Polish government during which time there was much other problems (ever heard of Russia invading Poland after WW1?) There was in fact a lot of racism towards Jews in that time but no organized efforts or pogroms. This only came after the government was removed and replaced by Nazi occupation. And I could come up with a bunch of excuses here for US behavior. BTW, claiming Poland was a "people" and not a "nation-state" is a complete cop-out for Poland's Holocaust atrocities. > If you compare it to current US situation, if the government stopped working completely, I am sure as hell there would be civil war between white and black population. No. Black US population is about 15%. It wouldn't be a civil war - it would be a massacre, which is why I and many others have been trying against all hope to calm down current tensions. I've worked in an "intersectional conflict zone" - I know what people can do to each other. It can absolutely happen in the US if we don't take care. > one nation state abusing power is no excuse for another doing the same. Yes, I totally agree. BTW, I noticed you didn't address any of my other points.
shliachtx 6y ago
> it was pent up hate in the local population that was released with an aggreement of o Nazi occupation force because people felt they can do whatever they want and decided to act on their hatred In my opinion much more damning than the actions of a government - not necessarily explicitly supported by the population.