> but by definition clandestine agencies cannot have public approval because there is no way for voters to know whether they should approve of it or not. Again

> but by definition clandestine agencies cannot have public approval because there is no way for voters to know whether they should approve of it or not. Again, I am directly refuting that argument. Voters can approve of clandestine agencies if they sign onto the fact that there exists some organs of the government that engage in secret activities unbeknownst to the public. What you are saying would only be correct if at first voters expected to be privy to the activities of the clandestine agencies, and then that happened to change. That has not been the case. I have provided you an actual poll that asks users "do you approve of these secret agencies (that have always been secret)". When presented with evidence that voters do approve of that, it's a bit of a hack to say that it's literally impossible for voters to approve of it. Not every voter in America is a progressive programmer that subscribes to the EFF's world view.