6 ms·

The ACOUP blog (which comes up on HN sometimes) has a great series on Sparta where Agoge is discussed in detail https://acoup.blog/2019/08/16/collections-this-

by dreen 6y ago

The ACOUP blog (which comes up on HN sometimes) has a great series on Sparta where Agoge is discussed in detail https://acoup.blog/2019/08/16/collections-this-isnt-sparta-part-i-spartan-school/ https://acoup.blog/2019/08/16/collections-this-isnt-sparta-p... It was a very eye-opening read, definitely at odds with the popular image of Sparta. In short about Agoge, he says it was much less about training and more about child indoctrination through extreme trauma. He compares it to child soldier programs like the one by Lords Resistance Army in Africa. Rather than producing skilled soldiers, he argues, it produced broken dysfunctional people.

jihadjihad 6y ago
Thanks for posting this. A while back I saw his blog post about oaths and vows [0] linked here on HN and it was an excellent read. I wasn't fortunate enough to have a thorough or rigorous history education, so I never thought I liked it. His blog has definitely kindled an interest in the subject I never knew I had. [0] https://acoup.blog/2019/06/28/collections-oaths-how-do-they-work/ https://acoup.blog/2019/06/28/collections-oaths-how-do-they-...
hirundo 6y ago
Given spartan relative military dominance in that era, it did produce skilled soldiers. But it's quite possible that the skills required to function well in a shield wall are compatible with being broken and dysfunctional otherwise. That's a common modern trope, e.g., with Vietnam vets.
- setr 6y ago
  Well, ACOUP also argues that sparta really never was very militarily dominant in the major wars (ie with persia/athens), and even in their local area, they largely dominated through their large population of helots (slaves), winning by number rather than military prowess or individual fighging capabilities
- dreen 6y ago
  According to the article I quoted (specifically, part VI [1]), their military dominance is a bit of a myth, and was more based on reputation even at the time. [1] https://acoup.blog/2019/09/20/collections-this-isnt-sparta-part-vi-spartan-battle/ https://acoup.blog/2019/09/20/collections-this-isnt-sparta-p...
- whakim 6y ago
  Actually, one of the defining features of hoplite armies is that they didn't require a lot of skill. Hoplite armies were pretty much blunt force instruments. And yet, even within that context, Spartan armies were pretty bad on a tactical level.
- tokai 6y ago
  >the skills required to function well in a shield wall are compatible with being broken and dysfunctional otherwise Thebes, with their sacred band, would suggest that broken men gets trashed by men fighting for love.
082349872349872 6y ago
The popular image of Sparta seems to have changed. When I grew up, west of the Curtain during the Cold War, the propaganda was 1st World ~= Athens, 2nd World ~= Sparta (and I suppose 3rd World would have been their various client states, which is apt in its own way). On the other hand, during the days of Empire, it seems the Brits had been stanning Sparta: Underfeeding (with resultant theft[1]) is something Orwell recalled about his time at St. Cyprian's. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23825457 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23825457 > "The food was not only bad, it was also insufficient. Never before or since have I seen butter or jam scraped on bread so thinly. I do not think I can be imagining the fact that we were underfed, when I remember the lengths we would go in order to steal food." The Krypteia were also present: > "The Sixth Form was a group of older boys who were selected as having 'character' and were empowered to beat smaller boys." > "There was a boy named Johnny Hale who for some months oppressed me horribly. He was a big, powerful, coarsely handsome boy with a very red face and curly black hair, who was forever twisting somebody's arm, wringing somebody's ear, flogging somebody with a riding-crop (he was a member of the Sixth Form), or performing prodigies of activity on the football field. Flip loved him (hence the fact he was habitually called by his Christian name) and Sambo commended him as a boy who 'had character' and 'could keep order'. He was followed about by a group of toadies who nicknamed him Strong Man." Is it any wonder Orwell would go on to write an infamous dystopia? [1] It's unclear if his boarding school expected students to supplement their diet from private funds. Orwell mentions other schools where this was explicit, and he was at St. Cyprian's on half-price scholarship. For adults, the posher cavalry regiments made sure their mess dues alone were above official pay rates, to keep out professional soldiers. We know there are instances of people in the british army refusing promotions because they couldn't have afforded one. (Was the glass ceiling the Empire's way to get around the Peter Principle? How many militaries have had "mustangs"?)
- barrenko 6y ago
  1984 can almost be read not as a story about some future or present dystopia, but as fear as organizing principle of society/groups. Huddling is what we seem to do best at our worst.
- barry-cotter 6y ago
rbecker 6y ago
How does that square with "The agōgē was prestigious throughout the Greek world, and many aristocratic families from other cities vied to send their sons to Sparta to participate in the agōgē for varying periods of time."? As far as I can tell, this blog goes against expert consensus on Sparta [1], so I'm wary of trusting its conclusions, for fear it's cherry-picking evidence, and making arguments only persuasive to a layman, akin to [2]. [1] Given its military pre-eminence, Sparta was recognized as the leading force of the unified Greek military during the Greco-Persian Wars, in rivalry with the rising naval power of Athens. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta [2] https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/06/03/repost-epistemic-learned-helplessness/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/06/03/repost-epistemic-learn...
- genghizkhan 6y ago
  To be very frank, if you go through the Sparta series, you'll see why he says what he does. Sparta's win/loss ratio is fairly average, and a detailed review of their battle strategies does show that they had but one strategy for everything. Their fearsome military reputation. If it didn't work, the Spartans were screwed. Secondly, the agoge and the Spartan social system was responsible for the population of the Spartiates going down through the ages: there was no way of replenishing it. If you have a system which sowed the seeds for its own destruction extremely conclusively, then by definition it's a shit system. You're right, Sparta was recognised as a pre-eminient military power. Even the blog doesn't argue against that. However, do keep in mind that the primary bunch of people the Spartans are compared to in that blog are the Romans, who were exponentially more successful by any metric you choose. In addition, the blog breaks down reasons why that might not be as true as the popular conception of Sparta today. Yes, Sparta was feared. But Sparta didn't really do much. In fact, the most successful Spartans (and no, I'm not counting Leonidas among them: he lost Thermopylae which was an absolute tactical disaster with no upsides for the war the Greeks were fighting) were ones who did not go through the agoge (I am thinking of Lysander as well as the hereditary Spartan kings, none of whom went through the agoge). In short, try going through that series on Sparta and make your own mind up. The author is a trained historian and gives fantastic sources. You can also search up Sparta on AskHistorians and see what scholarly consensus has to say there. In particular, it would be wise to go through the third link I share below: - https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/search?q=agoge&restrict_sr=on&sort=relevance&t=all https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/search?q=agoge&restri... - https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/g4oxut/what_caused_the_fall_of_sparta/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/g4oxut/what_... - https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/6rvusy/is_the_military_worship_of_the_spartans_really/dl8ns8q/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/6rvusy/is_th...
motohagiography 6y ago
Regarding the content of this link, I can't verify it either way in the case of Sparta, but I am always skeptical of how modern critics characterize mentoring relationships between men as sexual. It is as if the criticism is designed to cast aspersions on that mentoring itself because, arguably, mentoring relationships between men are a threat to progress.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  It may have meant mentor in ancient greek, but the word Plutarch uses (Lycurgus ch. 17) is ἐρασταὶ. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0131%3Achapter%3D17%3Asection%3D1 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%...

by dreen 6y ago

jihadjihad 6y ago

Thanks for posting this. A while back I saw his blog post about oaths and vows [0] linked here on HN and it was an excellent read. I wasn't fortunate enough to have a thorough or rigorous history education, so I never thought I liked it. His blog has definitely kindled an interest in the subject I never knew I had. [0] https://acoup.blog/2019/06/28/collections-oaths-how-do-they-work/ https://acoup.blog/2019/06/28/collections-oaths-how-do-they-...

hirundo 6y ago

Given spartan relative military dominance in that era, it did produce skilled soldiers. But it's quite possible that the skills required to function well in a shield wall are compatible with being broken and dysfunctional otherwise. That's a common modern trope, e.g., with Vietnam vets.

setr 6y ago
Well, ACOUP also argues that sparta really never was very militarily dominant in the major wars (ie with persia/athens), and even in their local area, they largely dominated through their large population of helots (slaves), winning by number rather than military prowess or individual fighging capabilities
dreen 6y ago
According to the article I quoted (specifically, part VI [1]), their military dominance is a bit of a myth, and was more based on reputation even at the time. [1] https://acoup.blog/2019/09/20/collections-this-isnt-sparta-part-vi-spartan-battle/ https://acoup.blog/2019/09/20/collections-this-isnt-sparta-p...
whakim 6y ago
Actually, one of the defining features of hoplite armies is that they didn't require a lot of skill. Hoplite armies were pretty much blunt force instruments. And yet, even within that context, Spartan armies were pretty bad on a tactical level.
tokai 6y ago
>the skills required to function well in a shield wall are compatible with being broken and dysfunctional otherwise Thebes, with their sacred band, would suggest that broken men gets trashed by men fighting for love.

082349872349872 6y ago

The popular image of Sparta seems to have changed. When I grew up, west of the Curtain during the Cold War, the propaganda was 1st World ~= Athens, 2nd World ~= Sparta (and I suppose 3rd World would have been their various client states, which is apt in its own way). On the other hand, during the days of Empire, it seems the Brits had been stanning Sparta: Underfeeding (with resultant theft[1]) is something Orwell recalled about his time at St. Cyprian's. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23825457 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23825457 > "The food was not only bad, it was also insufficient. Never before or since have I seen butter or jam scraped on bread so thinly. I do not think I can be imagining the fact that we were underfed, when I remember the lengths we would go in order to steal food." The Krypteia were also present: > "The Sixth Form was a group of older boys who were selected as having 'character' and were empowered to beat smaller boys." > "There was a boy named Johnny Hale who for some months oppressed me horribly. He was a big, powerful, coarsely handsome boy with a very red face and curly black hair, who was forever twisting somebody's arm, wringing somebody's ear, flogging somebody with a riding-crop (he was a member of the Sixth Form), or performing prodigies of activity on the football field. Flip loved him (hence the fact he was habitually called by his Christian name) and Sambo commended him as a boy who 'had character' and 'could keep order'. He was followed about by a group of toadies who nicknamed him Strong Man." Is it any wonder Orwell would go on to write an infamous dystopia? [1] It's unclear if his boarding school expected students to supplement their diet from private funds. Orwell mentions other schools where this was explicit, and he was at St. Cyprian's on half-price scholarship. For adults, the posher cavalry regiments made sure their mess dues alone were above official pay rates, to keep out professional soldiers. We know there are instances of people in the british army refusing promotions because they couldn't have afforded one. (Was the glass ceiling the Empire's way to get around the Peter Principle? How many militaries have had "mustangs"?)

barrenko 6y ago
1984 can almost be read not as a story about some future or present dystopia, but as fear as organizing principle of society/groups. Huddling is what we seem to do best at our worst.
barry-cotter 6y ago

rbecker 6y ago

How does that square with "The agōgē was prestigious throughout the Greek world, and many aristocratic families from other cities vied to send their sons to Sparta to participate in the agōgē for varying periods of time."? As far as I can tell, this blog goes against expert consensus on Sparta [1], so I'm wary of trusting its conclusions, for fear it's cherry-picking evidence, and making arguments only persuasive to a layman, akin to [2]. [1] Given its military pre-eminence, Sparta was recognized as the leading force of the unified Greek military during the Greco-Persian Wars, in rivalry with the rising naval power of Athens. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta [2] https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/06/03/repost-epistemic-learned-helplessness/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/06/03/repost-epistemic-learn...

genghizkhan 6y ago
To be very frank, if you go through the Sparta series, you'll see why he says what he does. Sparta's win/loss ratio is fairly average, and a detailed review of their battle strategies does show that they had but one strategy for everything. Their fearsome military reputation. If it didn't work, the Spartans were screwed. Secondly, the agoge and the Spartan social system was responsible for the population of the Spartiates going down through the ages: there was no way of replenishing it. If you have a system which sowed the seeds for its own destruction extremely conclusively, then by definition it's a shit system. You're right, Sparta was recognised as a pre-eminient military power. Even the blog doesn't argue against that. However, do keep in mind that the primary bunch of people the Spartans are compared to in that blog are the Romans, who were exponentially more successful by any metric you choose. In addition, the blog breaks down reasons why that might not be as true as the popular conception of Sparta today. Yes, Sparta was feared. But Sparta didn't really do much. In fact, the most successful Spartans (and no, I'm not counting Leonidas among them: he lost Thermopylae which was an absolute tactical disaster with no upsides for the war the Greeks were fighting) were ones who did not go through the agoge (I am thinking of Lysander as well as the hereditary Spartan kings, none of whom went through the agoge). In short, try going through that series on Sparta and make your own mind up. The author is a trained historian and gives fantastic sources. You can also search up Sparta on AskHistorians and see what scholarly consensus has to say there. In particular, it would be wise to go through the third link I share below: - https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/search?q=agoge&restrict_sr=on&sort=relevance&t=all https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/search?q=agoge&restri... - https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/g4oxut/what_caused_the_fall_of_sparta/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/g4oxut/what_... - https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/6rvusy/is_the_military_worship_of_the_spartans_really/dl8ns8q/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/6rvusy/is_th...

motohagiography 6y ago

Regarding the content of this link, I can't verify it either way in the case of Sparta, but I am always skeptical of how modern critics characterize mentoring relationships between men as sexual. It is as if the criticism is designed to cast aspersions on that mentoring itself because, arguably, mentoring relationships between men are a threat to progress.

082349872349872 6y ago
It may have meant mentor in ancient greek, but the word Plutarch uses (Lycurgus ch. 17) is ἐρασταὶ. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0131%3Achapter%3D17%3Asection%3D1 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%...