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One argument that I think deserves extra scrutiny is the idea that extra app stores can be “optional”. The reality is that developers would have a strong incen

by czzr 6y ago

One argument that I think deserves extra scrutiny is the idea that extra app stores can be “optional”. The reality is that developers would have a strong incentive to go to the most permissive App Store, and users will follow. Users will also underestimate or ignore risks. You can dismiss that by saying it’s the user’s responsibility, but I think that’s just an abdication of good systems design. I’m not saying that Apple has the perfect model - it doesn’t - but the trade-offs are not as simple as we might like.

mehlmao 6y ago
That hasn't happened on Android though, where it has been possible for years. Almost all apps are distributed through the Play Store. There's a huge amount of inertia in being the "default" store. Users need a really good reason to switch.
yyyk 6y ago
The reality is that your scenario never happened. Not on Android, not on Windows, not on Linux distributions... The 'official' App Store always wins, unless its demands are so onerous a small minority uses a small store in addition to it.
- bogwog 6y ago
  Which official app store won on Windows? AFAIK, Steam is the number one store for games, and people buy their apps from vendors directly (example: Adobe, Autodesk, even Microsoft). The Windows app store was dead on arrival. And linux package managers aren't app stores. They're mostly meant for system libraries and core applications, although some devs do distribute their (free) apps through it. In any case, Linux is a weird one to include in this comparison, and I'm pretty sure Steam is still the number one store for getting games on Linux too. But whatever, another thing: a big part of the reason that the official app store won on Android is because of the lengths Google goes to to scare users from installing apps from "unknown sources", hiding the option to do so, displaying scary popups, etc. That's one of the reasons Epic is suing Google for.
  - yyyk 6y ago
    In Windows the old method was installing exe files, and it remains the most popular - but otherwise the only app store worth mentioning is the MS one (on Steam in a moment). In Linux, package managers can and do include other apps (not all of course), and just about everything that can be installed from them gets priority from users - and alternative repos get the scraps. The option isn't hidden on android at all, it's dead simple. There's a warning dialog, but I can live with that. * Steam is a very specialized case: Not quite an app store [Apple credits itself with inventing the App Store, despite Steam existing since 2003, so Apple agrees with me on this], but they all but created the Linux game market, and got in before the Windows Store was created. Yea, if you create the market or get in in advance or on stuff the official store doesn't include, you can survive, but the general rule is that the official App Store wins. People are upset with Google, but it's not so much about the Play Store. And Apple doesn't need to be as lax as Google - If they had let go of the anti-competitive behaviour and had a slightly less explotitive fee structure people could live with the App Store being only store allowed. It's Apple being very greedy that led to the calls to, well, reduce Apple's permissions (I couldn't resist).
    - bogwog 6y ago
      > The option isn't hidden on android at all, it's dead simple. There's a warning dialog, but I can live with that. I can't. If I'm going to distribute my apps outside of Google Play, I need to tell my potential customers to crawl through their phone's settings page, clicking through various menus, then ignore the scary warnings that strongly imply I'm about to infect them with malware and steal all of their personal data. And I would have to do that in every single language I want to support, and of course would lose sales from people who don't want to bother following these long instructions, especially since they have to close their web browser (and hide the written instructions) to actually do it. And I also have increased support costs because I need to respond to emails from people who couldn't figure out how to do it (in all languages), and I have to constantly worry about being blocked by the "Play Protect" program, which scans apps installed outside of Google Play, sends them to Google's servers, and then decides to block them at Google's discretion. And if I happen to get big enough to where I potentially become a competitive threat to Google, then I have to worry about their "white hat" hit squad finding exploits in my software and sending it to major news outlets to ~~tarnish my reputation~~ I mean protect users. Or I can avoid all of those Google-created problems by giving Google 30% of my business. So while technically you could distribute your apps outside of Google Play, it is not practical at all thanks to all of the anti-competitive barriers Google has put up. Anyone who thinks that Android is a healthy environment for competition is being naive, or has no experience with consumer products. > * Steam is a very specialized case: Not quite an app store [Apple credits itself with inventing the App Store, despite Steam existing since 2003, so Apple agrees with me on this], but they all but created the Linux game market, and got in before the Windows Store was created. Yea, if you create the market or get in in advance or on stuff the official store doesn't include, you can survive, but the general rule is that the official App Store wins. What do you mean? Steam is 100% an app store. It's a store where they sell applications (although mostly games). Also, Steam was not at all the first game/app store on Windows or Linux. It was simply the best back in the day; so good in fact that it beat straight up piracy. Even today they're pretty great, despite the 30% cut (although that situation is completely different to the one Apple and Google are in)
cglong 6y ago
For a few years, Amazon had an "Actually Free" campaign that let you play Android games for free with no ads as long as they were installed through Amazon's Appstore. Even that wasn't enough to dethrone Google Play :)

by czzr 6y ago

mehlmao 6y ago

That hasn't happened on Android though, where it has been possible for years. Almost all apps are distributed through the Play Store. There's a huge amount of inertia in being the "default" store. Users need a really good reason to switch.

yyyk 6y ago

The reality is that your scenario never happened. Not on Android, not on Windows, not on Linux distributions... The 'official' App Store always wins, unless its demands are so onerous a small minority uses a small store in addition to it.

bogwog 6y ago
Which official app store won on Windows? AFAIK, Steam is the number one store for games, and people buy their apps from vendors directly (example: Adobe, Autodesk, even Microsoft). The Windows app store was dead on arrival. And linux package managers aren't app stores. They're mostly meant for system libraries and core applications, although some devs do distribute their (free) apps through it. In any case, Linux is a weird one to include in this comparison, and I'm pretty sure Steam is still the number one store for getting games on Linux too. But whatever, another thing: a big part of the reason that the official app store won on Android is because of the lengths Google goes to to scare users from installing apps from "unknown sources", hiding the option to do so, displaying scary popups, etc. That's one of the reasons Epic is suing Google for.
- yyyk 6y ago
  In Windows the old method was installing exe files, and it remains the most popular - but otherwise the only app store worth mentioning is the MS one (on Steam in a moment). In Linux, package managers can and do include other apps (not all of course), and just about everything that can be installed from them gets priority from users - and alternative repos get the scraps. The option isn't hidden on android at all, it's dead simple. There's a warning dialog, but I can live with that. * Steam is a very specialized case: Not quite an app store [Apple credits itself with inventing the App Store, despite Steam existing since 2003, so Apple agrees with me on this], but they all but created the Linux game market, and got in before the Windows Store was created. Yea, if you create the market or get in in advance or on stuff the official store doesn't include, you can survive, but the general rule is that the official App Store wins. People are upset with Google, but it's not so much about the Play Store. And Apple doesn't need to be as lax as Google - If they had let go of the anti-competitive behaviour and had a slightly less explotitive fee structure people could live with the App Store being only store allowed. It's Apple being very greedy that led to the calls to, well, reduce Apple's permissions (I couldn't resist).
  - bogwog 6y ago
    > The option isn't hidden on android at all, it's dead simple. There's a warning dialog, but I can live with that. I can't. If I'm going to distribute my apps outside of Google Play, I need to tell my potential customers to crawl through their phone's settings page, clicking through various menus, then ignore the scary warnings that strongly imply I'm about to infect them with malware and steal all of their personal data. And I would have to do that in every single language I want to support, and of course would lose sales from people who don't want to bother following these long instructions, especially since they have to close their web browser (and hide the written instructions) to actually do it. And I also have increased support costs because I need to respond to emails from people who couldn't figure out how to do it (in all languages), and I have to constantly worry about being blocked by the "Play Protect" program, which scans apps installed outside of Google Play, sends them to Google's servers, and then decides to block them at Google's discretion. And if I happen to get big enough to where I potentially become a competitive threat to Google, then I have to worry about their "white hat" hit squad finding exploits in my software and sending it to major news outlets to ~~tarnish my reputation~~ I mean protect users. Or I can avoid all of those Google-created problems by giving Google 30% of my business. So while technically you could distribute your apps outside of Google Play, it is not practical at all thanks to all of the anti-competitive barriers Google has put up. Anyone who thinks that Android is a healthy environment for competition is being naive, or has no experience with consumer products. > * Steam is a very specialized case: Not quite an app store [Apple credits itself with inventing the App Store, despite Steam existing since 2003, so Apple agrees with me on this], but they all but created the Linux game market, and got in before the Windows Store was created. Yea, if you create the market or get in in advance or on stuff the official store doesn't include, you can survive, but the general rule is that the official App Store wins. What do you mean? Steam is 100% an app store. It's a store where they sell applications (although mostly games). Also, Steam was not at all the first game/app store on Windows or Linux. It was simply the best back in the day; so good in fact that it beat straight up piracy. Even today they're pretty great, despite the 30% cut (although that situation is completely different to the one Apple and Google are in)

cglong 6y ago

For a few years, Amazon had an "Actually Free" campaign that let you play Android games for free with no ads as long as they were installed through Amazon's Appstore. Even that wasn't enough to dethrone Google Play :)