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> I've been trying really hard to replace all my usage of "you're wrong" with "yes and". How does it work with e.g.? A: 2+2=5 B: Yes and.... I've seen th

by jagrsw 6y ago

> I've been trying really hard to replace all my usage of "you're wrong" with "yes and". How does it work with e.g.? A: 2+2=5 B: Yes and.... I've seen this advice in some local guideline for holding effective meetings, but there are certain scenarios where saying 'yes and' or 'this might be true from your POV, but please consider' feels more like trying to manipulate someone than just trying to figure out something (agree on sth), esp. when it's a technical discussion.

donatj 6y ago
> How does it work with e.g.? > A: 2+2=5 > B: Yes and.... Pretty cleanly “Yes and minus 1”
082349872349872 6y ago
A: 2+2=5 B: Yes, in structural engineering (or rocket science) 2+2=5, and in cosmology 2+2=10, and in computer engineering 2+2=2, and as we're doing arithmetic here, 2+2=4. https://xkcd.com/2205/ https://xkcd.com/2205/ (Is Leo Moracchioli a cosmologist? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O81XldQHApg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O81XldQHApg )
darth_avocado 6y ago
> How does it work with e.g.? Yes and .... you're wrong you idiot
didibus 6y ago
A: 2+2=5 B: Yes, and I believe it's 4. This is a mutually respectful dialogue. You don't pretend to know better. You're just each sharing your ideas, and if they conflict, you'll open a dialogue into why they think it is 5? And here's why I think it is 4. And then you can both try to resolve the conflict and see why you think differently and what the correct answer actually is now that you've considered both. In your example, it might seem a bit silly, because of how certain we all are that 2+2=4. That said for anything less clear cut, you can really see where saying "Yes and" is better. A: Unit tests are more important than integ tests. B: Yes, and I believe integ tests add more value than unit tests. That said, it really depends who you're talking too. If someone is super open minded and welcomes disagreement and are constantly trying to test their knowledge, you probably won't need any of this. But if someone is less receptive, less confident, has a big ego, etc., Then you do need to manipulate their emotions to have them be more receptive.
- cutemonster 6y ago
  > You don't pretend to know better What if one really knows better though, eg talking about life at a place where you've been, but the other person never was there and is just guessing? I'm thinking a problem then can be the bystanders / co-workers: now they're going to think 5 is a fairly ok answer, when you didn't very clearly disagree about that? Especially if the other person sounds self confident. Any thoughts about how to strongly disagree, in a polite way, when the other person is crazily wrong in a slightly harmful way? But I think too that in most cases, especially when talking one and one, the Yes-and or sth like that probably is a good approach
  - didibus 6y ago
    > Any thoughts about how to strongly disagree, in a polite way, when the other person is crazily wrong in a slightly harmful way? If the other person is actually trying to misinform, it'll be hard. If they're really genuine, I think doing the above gives the bystanders enough info to choose for themselves. Like, you still should disclose the information you have, so say you have been there, and that it wasn't at all like that from your first hand experience, etc. The thing is, you won't convince everyone, but you'll have a better chance at convincing others if they hear you out and consider what you're saying openly. So that's kind of the idea here.
    - cutemonster 6y ago
      Maybe instead of "yes, and.. " one can day something like "interesting to hear. That's actually very different from how things were when ..." > if they hear you out and consider what you're saying openly Yes I agree

by jagrsw 6y ago

donatj 6y ago

> How does it work with e.g.? > A: 2+2=5 > B: Yes and.... Pretty cleanly “Yes and minus 1”

082349872349872 6y ago

A: 2+2=5 B: Yes, in structural engineering (or rocket science) 2+2=5, and in cosmology 2+2=10, and in computer engineering 2+2=2, and as we're doing arithmetic here, 2+2=4. https://xkcd.com/2205/ https://xkcd.com/2205/ (Is Leo Moracchioli a cosmologist? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O81XldQHApg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O81XldQHApg )

darth_avocado 6y ago

> How does it work with e.g.? Yes and .... you're wrong you idiot

didibus 6y ago

A: 2+2=5 B: Yes, and I believe it's 4. This is a mutually respectful dialogue. You don't pretend to know better. You're just each sharing your ideas, and if they conflict, you'll open a dialogue into why they think it is 5? And here's why I think it is 4. And then you can both try to resolve the conflict and see why you think differently and what the correct answer actually is now that you've considered both. In your example, it might seem a bit silly, because of how certain we all are that 2+2=4. That said for anything less clear cut, you can really see where saying "Yes and" is better. A: Unit tests are more important than integ tests. B: Yes, and I believe integ tests add more value than unit tests. That said, it really depends who you're talking too. If someone is super open minded and welcomes disagreement and are constantly trying to test their knowledge, you probably won't need any of this. But if someone is less receptive, less confident, has a big ego, etc., Then you do need to manipulate their emotions to have them be more receptive.

cutemonster 6y ago
> You don't pretend to know better What if one really knows better though, eg talking about life at a place where you've been, but the other person never was there and is just guessing? I'm thinking a problem then can be the bystanders / co-workers: now they're going to think 5 is a fairly ok answer, when you didn't very clearly disagree about that? Especially if the other person sounds self confident. Any thoughts about how to strongly disagree, in a polite way, when the other person is crazily wrong in a slightly harmful way? But I think too that in most cases, especially when talking one and one, the Yes-and or sth like that probably is a good approach
- didibus 6y ago
  > Any thoughts about how to strongly disagree, in a polite way, when the other person is crazily wrong in a slightly harmful way? If the other person is actually trying to misinform, it'll be hard. If they're really genuine, I think doing the above gives the bystanders enough info to choose for themselves. Like, you still should disclose the information you have, so say you have been there, and that it wasn't at all like that from your first hand experience, etc. The thing is, you won't convince everyone, but you'll have a better chance at convincing others if they hear you out and consider what you're saying openly. So that's kind of the idea here.
  - cutemonster 6y ago
    Maybe instead of "yes, and.. " one can day something like "interesting to hear. That's actually very different from how things were when ..." > if they hear you out and consider what you're saying openly Yes I agree