3 ms·

I agree we are all humans. But as humans, we are strongly influenced by our environment, and I think the current system of policing has a number of fundamental

by nfw2 6y ago

I agree we are all humans. But as humans, we are strongly influenced by our environment, and I think the current system of policing has a number of fundamental issues that makes the flaws we share as humans worse. 1.) Positions of power can attract people who have a longing for power, who may not be well-adjusted, emotionally-healthy individuals. 2.) Policing is a dangerous job, and constant personal danger can lead to regression away from the ideals we hold as a society. Something like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. When one of the basic needs (personal safety) is compromised, everything above it on the pyramid becomes less stable. 3.) Policing is an adversarial job. This leads to a us vs them mentality and also contributes to the next problem 4.) Racism. Racism has been part of our culture for a long time. This means... a.) some officers certainly will be coming into the force with racial biases to varying degrees, and b.) the fact that the jobs pits them as adversaries against certain races of people more than others will makes these biases worse.

nfw2 6y ago
I think these are complicated issues, and I am not sure what the best path forward is. Changes to oversight and immunity policies would likely improve outcomes. I think solving the issues that lead to inequity and crime would indirectly have a positive impact on police behavior. Diverting some police responsibilities to social workers seems like a good idea in general. I don't know if it would be effective in preventing the tragedies we see constantly across our country. These all generally happen in the process of an arrest, which seems like a responsibility that would need to be retained by officers in a system where the responsibilies are split.
- nemo44x 6y ago
  I’m curious about this social worker idea. My mother was one and her job had her working mainly in poor neighborhoods. She was tasked with going into homes, speaking with people, and determining if the children there were in a safe environment. If it was judged it wasn’t safe, then they would remove the children. As you can imagine this was a fairly dangerous job at times. Almost every time they had to make a removal the police would need to be called to assist. Even getting into the homes they’d need police sometimes as they’d be threatened and intimidated. She eventually left that role to work with elderly people in need.
mgleason_3 6y ago
https://www.npr.org/2020/06/12/876293261/the-link-between-disproportionate-police-brutality-and-police-unions https://www.npr.org/2020/06/12/876293261/the-link-between-di... This Story makes a solid argument that police unions are a huge part of the problem. The unions’ protect bad cops, negotiate work rules, influence Elections, effect training programs and oppose reform. Maybe its time to look at getting rid of public employee unions altogether.
- kls 6y ago
  I was explaining this to someone the other day, the unions enable the blue wall and they make it virtually impossible to remove the bad seeds.
mschuster91 6y ago
> 3.) Policing is an adversarial job. This leads to a us vs them mentality and also contributes to the next problem This has another point: America's desire for ... extremely long and, from an European POV, frankly ridiculous prison sentences. In most of Europe, even someone carrying a car load worth of meth earns only a couple years of prison time in decent conditions (don't get me wrong, our prisons are not perfect, but generally mental and physical healthcare are given, food is decent and gangs/prison rape is nowhere near the widespread problem as it is in the US) if caught. There is no incentive to shoot a cop, in fact there is an incentive to be cooperative and friendly with cops at e.g. traffic stops (so that they don't search the car in the first place). In America however? A drug runner often has to choose between either not shooting the cop and definitely earn decades of prison time in overcrowded prisons with inhumane conditions or shooting the cop and possibly getting away. This is why US cops are so trigger happy and assuming every person they interact with is out to shoot them, plus the ... extremely widespread availability of guns. A huge part of solving the police violence problem will be gun control, sentencing reforms and prison reforms, as unintuitively as it sounds.
- nfw2 6y ago
  This a great point, but there is a counter-argument that reducing punishments for drug-related offenses may make the opioid epidemic in the US worse. This is a huge problem and roughly 70k Americans die per year from OD, which is much more than the number of police killings. I personally lost a cousin to drug OD a couple years ago. One extreme solution that might work is making all drugs legal for adults (21+), and have extremely strict punishments on providing drugs to minors. This sort of policy change might have saved my cousin because: 1.) It would put dealers out of business which I think would make it harder for teenagers to acquire hard drugs. When I was in HS in California, it was way easier to get marijuana than to get alcohol because there was a system of distributors for it. Acquiring alcohol meant asking someone's older sibling or friend, or getting a fake id and hoping the liquor store clerk doesn't confront you, or sneaking some out of parents' pantry. None of these were great options, and none of these methods would work for hard drugs like heroin which nearly the entire adult population has a severe negative perspective, unlike alcohol. 2.) If adult users bought from regulated sources, it would at the very least ensure the drugs aren't cut with fentanyl and that doses are intentional.

by nfw2 6y ago

nfw2 6y ago

I think these are complicated issues, and I am not sure what the best path forward is. Changes to oversight and immunity policies would likely improve outcomes. I think solving the issues that lead to inequity and crime would indirectly have a positive impact on police behavior. Diverting some police responsibilities to social workers seems like a good idea in general. I don't know if it would be effective in preventing the tragedies we see constantly across our country. These all generally happen in the process of an arrest, which seems like a responsibility that would need to be retained by officers in a system where the responsibilies are split.

nemo44x 6y ago
I’m curious about this social worker idea. My mother was one and her job had her working mainly in poor neighborhoods. She was tasked with going into homes, speaking with people, and determining if the children there were in a safe environment. If it was judged it wasn’t safe, then they would remove the children. As you can imagine this was a fairly dangerous job at times. Almost every time they had to make a removal the police would need to be called to assist. Even getting into the homes they’d need police sometimes as they’d be threatened and intimidated. She eventually left that role to work with elderly people in need.

mgleason_3 6y ago

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/12/876293261/the-link-between-disproportionate-police-brutality-and-police-unions https://www.npr.org/2020/06/12/876293261/the-link-between-di... This Story makes a solid argument that police unions are a huge part of the problem. The unions’ protect bad cops, negotiate work rules, influence Elections, effect training programs and oppose reform. Maybe its time to look at getting rid of public employee unions altogether.

kls 6y ago
I was explaining this to someone the other day, the unions enable the blue wall and they make it virtually impossible to remove the bad seeds.

mschuster91 6y ago

> 3.) Policing is an adversarial job. This leads to a us vs them mentality and also contributes to the next problem This has another point: America's desire for ... extremely long and, from an European POV, frankly ridiculous prison sentences. In most of Europe, even someone carrying a car load worth of meth earns only a couple years of prison time in decent conditions (don't get me wrong, our prisons are not perfect, but generally mental and physical healthcare are given, food is decent and gangs/prison rape is nowhere near the widespread problem as it is in the US) if caught. There is no incentive to shoot a cop, in fact there is an incentive to be cooperative and friendly with cops at e.g. traffic stops (so that they don't search the car in the first place). In America however? A drug runner often has to choose between either not shooting the cop and definitely earn decades of prison time in overcrowded prisons with inhumane conditions or shooting the cop and possibly getting away. This is why US cops are so trigger happy and assuming every person they interact with is out to shoot them, plus the ... extremely widespread availability of guns. A huge part of solving the police violence problem will be gun control, sentencing reforms and prison reforms, as unintuitively as it sounds.

nfw2 6y ago
This a great point, but there is a counter-argument that reducing punishments for drug-related offenses may make the opioid epidemic in the US worse. This is a huge problem and roughly 70k Americans die per year from OD, which is much more than the number of police killings. I personally lost a cousin to drug OD a couple years ago. One extreme solution that might work is making all drugs legal for adults (21+), and have extremely strict punishments on providing drugs to minors. This sort of policy change might have saved my cousin because: 1.) It would put dealers out of business which I think would make it harder for teenagers to acquire hard drugs. When I was in HS in California, it was way easier to get marijuana than to get alcohol because there was a system of distributors for it. Acquiring alcohol meant asking someone's older sibling or friend, or getting a fake id and hoping the liquor store clerk doesn't confront you, or sneaking some out of parents' pantry. None of these were great options, and none of these methods would work for hard drugs like heroin which nearly the entire adult population has a severe negative perspective, unlike alcohol. 2.) If adult users bought from regulated sources, it would at the very least ensure the drugs aren't cut with fentanyl and that doses are intentional.