5 ms·

I've been trying really hard to replace all my usage of "you're wrong" with "yes and". Another good one I'm trying recently is: "You're right to think that giv

I've been trying really hard to replace all my usage of "you're wrong" with "yes and". Another good one I'm trying recently is: "You're right to think that given the information you know, and here's some more information you should consider." Oh and: "That's a great hypothesis, here's another one."

jagrsw 6y ago
> I've been trying really hard to replace all my usage of "you're wrong" with "yes and". How does it work with e.g.? A: 2+2=5 B: Yes and.... I've seen this advice in some local guideline for holding effective meetings, but there are certain scenarios where saying 'yes and' or 'this might be true from your POV, but please consider' feels more like trying to manipulate someone than just trying to figure out something (agree on sth), esp. when it's a technical discussion.
- donatj 6y ago
  > How does it work with e.g.? > A: 2+2=5 > B: Yes and.... Pretty cleanly “Yes and minus 1”
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  A: 2+2=5 B: Yes, in structural engineering (or rocket science) 2+2=5, and in cosmology 2+2=10, and in computer engineering 2+2=2, and as we're doing arithmetic here, 2+2=4. https://xkcd.com/2205/ https://xkcd.com/2205/ (Is Leo Moracchioli a cosmologist? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O81XldQHApg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O81XldQHApg )
- darth_avocado 6y ago
  > How does it work with e.g.? Yes and .... you're wrong you idiot
- didibus 6y ago
  A: 2+2=5 B: Yes, and I believe it's 4. This is a mutually respectful dialogue. You don't pretend to know better. You're just each sharing your ideas, and if they conflict, you'll open a dialogue into why they think it is 5? And here's why I think it is 4. And then you can both try to resolve the conflict and see why you think differently and what the correct answer actually is now that you've considered both. In your example, it might seem a bit silly, because of how certain we all are that 2+2=4. That said for anything less clear cut, you can really see where saying "Yes and" is better. A: Unit tests are more important than integ tests. B: Yes, and I believe integ tests add more value than unit tests. That said, it really depends who you're talking too. If someone is super open minded and welcomes disagreement and are constantly trying to test their knowledge, you probably won't need any of this. But if someone is less receptive, less confident, has a big ego, etc., Then you do need to manipulate their emotions to have them be more receptive.
  - cutemonster 6y ago
    > You don't pretend to know better What if one really knows better though, eg talking about life at a place where you've been, but the other person never was there and is just guessing? I'm thinking a problem then can be the bystanders / co-workers: now they're going to think 5 is a fairly ok answer, when you didn't very clearly disagree about that? Especially if the other person sounds self confident. Any thoughts about how to strongly disagree, in a polite way, when the other person is crazily wrong in a slightly harmful way? But I think too that in most cases, especially when talking one and one, the Yes-and or sth like that probably is a good approach
    - didibus 6y ago
      > Any thoughts about how to strongly disagree, in a polite way, when the other person is crazily wrong in a slightly harmful way? If the other person is actually trying to misinform, it'll be hard. If they're really genuine, I think doing the above gives the bystanders enough info to choose for themselves. Like, you still should disclose the information you have, so say you have been there, and that it wasn't at all like that from your first hand experience, etc. The thing is, you won't convince everyone, but you'll have a better chance at convincing others if they hear you out and consider what you're saying openly. So that's kind of the idea here.
      - cutemonster 6y ago
        Maybe instead of "yes, and.. " one can day something like "interesting to hear. That's actually very different from how things were when ..." > if they hear you out and consider what you're saying openly Yes I agree
jld89 6y ago
Great replies thanks for sharing
lm2s 6y ago
I prefer "Hmm I don't think that's correct" and go on as to why. To me it feels less like an attack.
- jpindar 6y ago
  I've sometimes told people their idea was non-optimal.
throwaway316943 6y ago
Those are both pretty condescending. Convincing someone is the same as correcting a math problem, work through the chain of reasoning until you find the error. The problem is you need to establish trust and good will to do this. Building rapport first and agreeing that you will both act in good faith before going through the reasoning. Just saying “you’re right” and “that’s great” are pretty weak attempts and will be seen as patronizing more often than not.
- darth_avocado 6y ago
  You're assuming people are reasonable. They're not most of the times.
- didibus 6y ago
  Out of context they might appear condescending. The reason I have more than one is different ones are appropriate in different contexts. Basically, "you're wrong" is dismissive of the other person's intelligence. That's why I want to avoid it. So when someone is saying something I mostly agree with, but I just want to expand on it, instead of saying "but" or "not quite" or "that's not it", I will say "yes, and". Because I recon that's very much what I think as well with just a few minor additions. If someone has an idea and I think there are better ideas, I won't say, "that's dumb", or "no", I will say, "oh that's a good idea, can I propose one too?" Because that's what I want to express, like good job with that idea, nothing against it except I'd like us to consider if this other one might be better, which it might not be. Etc.
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
People aren't idiots. If you're just replacing "you're wrong" with doublespeak people are gonna figure it out real quick. There is no substitute for engaging in Quality(TM) communication with people even if the end result is disagreement.
- didibus 6y ago
  I agree, quality communication starts by recognizing the other person's ideas and considering them first before you shut them down. Saying "you're wrong" as the first thing after they've told you what they thought is pretty dismissive, especially if they feel confident or have put effort into their thoughts. So to me, that's the reason for change in language. First I want to express that I'm listening to what you said, I'm considering it, and I think it's really good, but there are certain aspects that I'm unsure about, and now I'd like them to consider those.

jagrsw 6y ago

> I've been trying really hard to replace all my usage of "you're wrong" with "yes and". How does it work with e.g.? A: 2+2=5 B: Yes and.... I've seen this advice in some local guideline for holding effective meetings, but there are certain scenarios where saying 'yes and' or 'this might be true from your POV, but please consider' feels more like trying to manipulate someone than just trying to figure out something (agree on sth), esp. when it's a technical discussion.

donatj 6y ago
> How does it work with e.g.? > A: 2+2=5 > B: Yes and.... Pretty cleanly “Yes and minus 1”
082349872349872 6y ago
A: 2+2=5 B: Yes, in structural engineering (or rocket science) 2+2=5, and in cosmology 2+2=10, and in computer engineering 2+2=2, and as we're doing arithmetic here, 2+2=4. https://xkcd.com/2205/ https://xkcd.com/2205/ (Is Leo Moracchioli a cosmologist? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O81XldQHApg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O81XldQHApg )
darth_avocado 6y ago
> How does it work with e.g.? Yes and .... you're wrong you idiot
didibus 6y ago
A: 2+2=5 B: Yes, and I believe it's 4. This is a mutually respectful dialogue. You don't pretend to know better. You're just each sharing your ideas, and if they conflict, you'll open a dialogue into why they think it is 5? And here's why I think it is 4. And then you can both try to resolve the conflict and see why you think differently and what the correct answer actually is now that you've considered both. In your example, it might seem a bit silly, because of how certain we all are that 2+2=4. That said for anything less clear cut, you can really see where saying "Yes and" is better. A: Unit tests are more important than integ tests. B: Yes, and I believe integ tests add more value than unit tests. That said, it really depends who you're talking too. If someone is super open minded and welcomes disagreement and are constantly trying to test their knowledge, you probably won't need any of this. But if someone is less receptive, less confident, has a big ego, etc., Then you do need to manipulate their emotions to have them be more receptive.
- cutemonster 6y ago
  > You don't pretend to know better What if one really knows better though, eg talking about life at a place where you've been, but the other person never was there and is just guessing? I'm thinking a problem then can be the bystanders / co-workers: now they're going to think 5 is a fairly ok answer, when you didn't very clearly disagree about that? Especially if the other person sounds self confident. Any thoughts about how to strongly disagree, in a polite way, when the other person is crazily wrong in a slightly harmful way? But I think too that in most cases, especially when talking one and one, the Yes-and or sth like that probably is a good approach
  - didibus 6y ago
    > Any thoughts about how to strongly disagree, in a polite way, when the other person is crazily wrong in a slightly harmful way? If the other person is actually trying to misinform, it'll be hard. If they're really genuine, I think doing the above gives the bystanders enough info to choose for themselves. Like, you still should disclose the information you have, so say you have been there, and that it wasn't at all like that from your first hand experience, etc. The thing is, you won't convince everyone, but you'll have a better chance at convincing others if they hear you out and consider what you're saying openly. So that's kind of the idea here.
    - cutemonster 6y ago
      Maybe instead of "yes, and.. " one can day something like "interesting to hear. That's actually very different from how things were when ..." > if they hear you out and consider what you're saying openly Yes I agree

jld89 6y ago

Great replies thanks for sharing

lm2s 6y ago

I prefer "Hmm I don't think that's correct" and go on as to why. To me it feels less like an attack.

jpindar 6y ago
I've sometimes told people their idea was non-optimal.

throwaway316943 6y ago

Those are both pretty condescending. Convincing someone is the same as correcting a math problem, work through the chain of reasoning until you find the error. The problem is you need to establish trust and good will to do this. Building rapport first and agreeing that you will both act in good faith before going through the reasoning. Just saying “you’re right” and “that’s great” are pretty weak attempts and will be seen as patronizing more often than not.

darth_avocado 6y ago
You're assuming people are reasonable. They're not most of the times.
didibus 6y ago
Out of context they might appear condescending. The reason I have more than one is different ones are appropriate in different contexts. Basically, "you're wrong" is dismissive of the other person's intelligence. That's why I want to avoid it. So when someone is saying something I mostly agree with, but I just want to expand on it, instead of saying "but" or "not quite" or "that's not it", I will say "yes, and". Because I recon that's very much what I think as well with just a few minor additions. If someone has an idea and I think there are better ideas, I won't say, "that's dumb", or "no", I will say, "oh that's a good idea, can I propose one too?" Because that's what I want to express, like good job with that idea, nothing against it except I'd like us to consider if this other one might be better, which it might not be. Etc.

throwaway0a5e 6y ago

People aren't idiots. If you're just replacing "you're wrong" with doublespeak people are gonna figure it out real quick. There is no substitute for engaging in Quality(TM) communication with people even if the end result is disagreement.

didibus 6y ago
I agree, quality communication starts by recognizing the other person's ideas and considering them first before you shut them down. Saying "you're wrong" as the first thing after they've told you what they thought is pretty dismissive, especially if they feel confident or have put effort into their thoughts. So to me, that's the reason for change in language. First I want to express that I'm listening to what you said, I'm considering it, and I think it's really good, but there are certain aspects that I'm unsure about, and now I'd like them to consider those.