5 ms·

Well you can't just remove police and think everything is going to be okay. The police abolitionist movement is calling for removing untrained, armed, and ofte

Well you can't just remove police and think everything is going to be okay. The police abolitionist movement is calling for removing untrained, armed, and oftentimes extremely racist individuals from the streets and replacing them with social programs, housing, education, healthcare. You can't just do 10% of the ask here and then be surprised when shit doesn't magically get better.

jojobas 6y ago
>racist individuals So you have to rotate your entire police force every few years.
- aaomidi 6y ago
  Are you suggesting some people are biologically destined to be bad actors? Can you not fathom that we're systemically keeping said group of people weak and hopeless?
  - jojobas 6y ago
    I'm not keeping anyone hopeless. I'm suggesting you can't beat builtin Bayesian inference.
    - aaomidi 6y ago
      Ew.
    - halfcat 6y ago
      > beat builtin Bayesian inference That’s exactly what tools like the scientific method do. Systems of law enforcement could be similarly redesigned to sidestep many cognitive biases.
defen 6y ago
Would it be accurate, then, to say that the "police abolitionist movement" does not want to abolish the police? If that is the case, why call it the police abolitionist movement? It seems like all that does is generate ill-will from people who are potential allies.
- Sebguer 6y ago
  Re-read the person you're responding to, I think you'll see your response makes no sense. They didn't say "replacing them with nicer cops", they said: replacing them with social programs, housing, education, healthcare. None of these require cops. Yes, you likely need some form of police force for the very, very edge case scenarios where the others won't do, but abolish police means abolish the police.
  - defen 6y ago
    Unless you assume all cops are "untrained, armed, and oftentimes extremely racist individuals", simply removing those who are would not "abolish the police", which is why I asked.
- skocznymroczny 6y ago
  https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abol...
- Spivak 6y ago
  Police abolitionist is about two things. * Dissolving existing police departments and making officers reapply as a way to eliminate the worst offenders that are currently protected by the blue line of silence. * Re-establishing the police as a much smaller operation where their duties are limited to situations where deadly/coercive force is needed. Things that would become police “adjacent” and would be handled by other government officials. - detective work - calls about the homeless - all non-violent offenses like noise complaints, property disputes, drug possession, moving violations, shoplifting, etc. The hope being that many people who are currently officers would actually rather be part of the non-violent operation.
john_moscow 6y ago
>replacing them with social programs, housing, education, healthcare. Unfortunately, this part is extremely vague and is missing a track record. So how it ends up in the real human world, is police funding gets cut and the funds get diverted into corrupt politicians' pockets. Like the Chicago mayor that successfully reduced police funding only to have a separate police detachment placed near her home.
- lm28469 6y ago
  > Unfortunately, this part is extremely vague and is missing a track record. Literally any other first country has these, how is this vague and missing track records ?
colechristensen 6y ago
There are many people who are apologists for the police abolition movement (or whatever it should be called). I’m sorry but it is quite obvious that a whole lot of people carrying around ACAB (all cops are bad) and “defund the police” signs don’t go along with the this-is-what-they-actually-mean explanations. They mean to have their message taken at face value. I saw myself spraypainted on a Minneapolis building “actually defund the police”. it is hard to reinterpret all cops are bad as anything but the obvious, and it is quite popular.
- tom_ 6y ago
  ACAB stands for All Cops Are Bastards. Urban Dictionary is always a good source for this kind of thing: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ACAB https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ACAB
  - colechristensen 6y ago
    Urban Dictionary can say what it wants, I saw many signs in protests, in media coverage of protests, and on social media with All Cops Are Bad and zero with Bastards. Both in first hand experience seeing with my own eyes the messaging people who are saying it and through various means of showing someone else's message.
    - fastball 6y ago
      It's definitely All Cops Are Bastards.
    - guerrilla 6y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.C.A.B https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.C.A.B.
- charwalker 6y ago
  Everything is vastly more complex than those signs. Sure that's the effort and motivation, end goal of protesters but that isn't a plan to accomplish it. Protest leaders and linked organizations need to draft those plans and lobby local/state/federal officials to pass such legislation and create change via compromise. At some point that change will satisfy the bulk of protesters and the movement will slow until momentum is built back up. It's a compromise and likely won't come easy or fast given current federal government setup. But other than generational change (ie old people who are heavily conservative die off so younger, more liberal people become the voting base) likely combined with removing money from Us politics (no easy fight there) I doubt it will happen soon.
bufferoverflow 6y ago
You cannot replace the police with social programs. What are you going to do when somebody breaks into your house, assaults you, robs you, kills someone? Call your social worker? Canada had an experiment of removing policing for just one day. It did not go well at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray-Hill_riot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray-Hill_riot
- relaxing 6y ago
  What are the police going to do? You’re already robbed/dead. Police abolition is asking for a change to the socioeconomic systems that lead people to rob in the first place. The threat of police locking you up surely isn’t doing it.
  - bufferoverflow 6y ago
    They will arrest the perpetrator. Or maybe they will get to you in time, if they are close enough. > The threat of police locking you up surely isn’t doing it. Because the criminals keep getting released, especially for political reasons. Increased policing does work. Crime rates have been going down. Decreased policing doesn't work - crime rates go up, just see what's happening in NYC, Chicago, Seattle.
    - relaxing 6y ago
      > They will arrest the perpetrator. Maybe. Yet this crime still happened, in spite of all the perps got arrested before. > Or maybe they will get to you in time Unlikely. > Because the criminals keep getting released, especially for political reasons. Like most states, NY, IL, and WA have each eliminated parole for violent offenders, so that’s not it. You’re going to have to be more specific with your stats. Crime rates continue to decrease in those cities - even in Chicago. The 2016 spike in homicides is an interesting topic if you care learn the driving forces behind it. There wasn’t a mass release of criminals as you suggest, but there was a series of gun laws invalidated by the courts.
      - 6y ago

jojobas 6y ago

>racist individuals So you have to rotate your entire police force every few years.

aaomidi 6y ago
Are you suggesting some people are biologically destined to be bad actors? Can you not fathom that we're systemically keeping said group of people weak and hopeless?
- jojobas 6y ago
  I'm not keeping anyone hopeless. I'm suggesting you can't beat builtin Bayesian inference.
  - aaomidi 6y ago
    Ew.
  - halfcat 6y ago
    > beat builtin Bayesian inference That’s exactly what tools like the scientific method do. Systems of law enforcement could be similarly redesigned to sidestep many cognitive biases.

defen 6y ago

Would it be accurate, then, to say that the "police abolitionist movement" does not want to abolish the police? If that is the case, why call it the police abolitionist movement? It seems like all that does is generate ill-will from people who are potential allies.

Sebguer 6y ago
Re-read the person you're responding to, I think you'll see your response makes no sense. They didn't say "replacing them with nicer cops", they said: replacing them with social programs, housing, education, healthcare. None of these require cops. Yes, you likely need some form of police force for the very, very edge case scenarios where the others won't do, but abolish police means abolish the police.
- defen 6y ago
  Unless you assume all cops are "untrained, armed, and oftentimes extremely racist individuals", simply removing those who are would not "abolish the police", which is why I asked.
skocznymroczny 6y ago
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abol...
Spivak 6y ago
Police abolitionist is about two things. * Dissolving existing police departments and making officers reapply as a way to eliminate the worst offenders that are currently protected by the blue line of silence. * Re-establishing the police as a much smaller operation where their duties are limited to situations where deadly/coercive force is needed. Things that would become police “adjacent” and would be handled by other government officials. - detective work - calls about the homeless - all non-violent offenses like noise complaints, property disputes, drug possession, moving violations, shoplifting, etc. The hope being that many people who are currently officers would actually rather be part of the non-violent operation.

john_moscow 6y ago

>replacing them with social programs, housing, education, healthcare. Unfortunately, this part is extremely vague and is missing a track record. So how it ends up in the real human world, is police funding gets cut and the funds get diverted into corrupt politicians' pockets. Like the Chicago mayor that successfully reduced police funding only to have a separate police detachment placed near her home.

lm28469 6y ago
> Unfortunately, this part is extremely vague and is missing a track record. Literally any other first country has these, how is this vague and missing track records ?

colechristensen 6y ago

There are many people who are apologists for the police abolition movement (or whatever it should be called). I’m sorry but it is quite obvious that a whole lot of people carrying around ACAB (all cops are bad) and “defund the police” signs don’t go along with the this-is-what-they-actually-mean explanations. They mean to have their message taken at face value. I saw myself spraypainted on a Minneapolis building “actually defund the police”. it is hard to reinterpret all cops are bad as anything but the obvious, and it is quite popular.

tom_ 6y ago
ACAB stands for All Cops Are Bastards. Urban Dictionary is always a good source for this kind of thing: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ACAB https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ACAB
- colechristensen 6y ago
  Urban Dictionary can say what it wants, I saw many signs in protests, in media coverage of protests, and on social media with All Cops Are Bad and zero with Bastards. Both in first hand experience seeing with my own eyes the messaging people who are saying it and through various means of showing someone else's message.
  - fastball 6y ago
    It's definitely All Cops Are Bastards.
  - guerrilla 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.C.A.B https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.C.A.B.
charwalker 6y ago
Everything is vastly more complex than those signs. Sure that's the effort and motivation, end goal of protesters but that isn't a plan to accomplish it. Protest leaders and linked organizations need to draft those plans and lobby local/state/federal officials to pass such legislation and create change via compromise. At some point that change will satisfy the bulk of protesters and the movement will slow until momentum is built back up. It's a compromise and likely won't come easy or fast given current federal government setup. But other than generational change (ie old people who are heavily conservative die off so younger, more liberal people become the voting base) likely combined with removing money from Us politics (no easy fight there) I doubt it will happen soon.

bufferoverflow 6y ago

You cannot replace the police with social programs. What are you going to do when somebody breaks into your house, assaults you, robs you, kills someone? Call your social worker? Canada had an experiment of removing policing for just one day. It did not go well at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray-Hill_riot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray-Hill_riot

relaxing 6y ago
What are the police going to do? You’re already robbed/dead. Police abolition is asking for a change to the socioeconomic systems that lead people to rob in the first place. The threat of police locking you up surely isn’t doing it.
- bufferoverflow 6y ago
  They will arrest the perpetrator. Or maybe they will get to you in time, if they are close enough. > The threat of police locking you up surely isn’t doing it. Because the criminals keep getting released, especially for political reasons. Increased policing does work. Crime rates have been going down. Decreased policing doesn't work - crime rates go up, just see what's happening in NYC, Chicago, Seattle.
  - relaxing 6y ago
    > They will arrest the perpetrator. Maybe. Yet this crime still happened, in spite of all the perps got arrested before. > Or maybe they will get to you in time Unlikely. > Because the criminals keep getting released, especially for political reasons. Like most states, NY, IL, and WA have each eliminated parole for violent offenders, so that’s not it. You’re going to have to be more specific with your stats. Crime rates continue to decrease in those cities - even in Chicago. The 2016 spike in homicides is an interesting topic if you care learn the driving forces behind it. There wasn’t a mass release of criminals as you suggest, but there was a series of gun laws invalidated by the courts.
    - 6y ago