7 ms·

Mozilla funding $245,000 for Black artists to show how #AI can reinforce/disrupt

18 points by poisonarena 6y ago

randompwd 6y ago
#SaveFirefox #DefundMozilla
- ppf 6y ago
  As I understand it, the build process for Firefox is now so painful it might be beyond saving.
  - stingraycharles 6y ago
    What happened that caused that? I remember from about a decade or two ago it was already relatively involved (on par with OpenOffice and the likes), is it worse now?
    - xmodem 6y ago
      I recently had reason to build both Chromium and Firefox from source and Firefox was considerably simpler, on Windows at least
      - ppf 6y ago
        Fair enough, my information might be out of date.
ed25519FUUU 6y ago
It's curious to me that you can make race a legal requirement for anything.
- olliej 6y ago
  Ideally you wouldn’t, but if there’s a long history of discrimination against that race/sex/orientation/identity then you need to do that to correct for the historical bias. I’d rather it not exist, but there isn’t really any other corrective measure you can make.
  - pure_simplicity 6y ago
    That's simply a false dichotomy. You can very easily tailor social programs to help correct for the effects of historical injustice without resorting to discrimination by simply targetting the effect itself, not the group that was discriminated against. Any group that is disproportionally affected by the effect will be disproportionally helped by the alleviation and remediation of said effect. The argument that we need more racism because of racism is a vicious cycle. I hate all racism, no matter if it's well intentioned. The road to hell is all too often paved with good intentions. Groups do not endure injustice, individuals do. The moment we start thinking of people as competing groups rather than individuals, individuals become devalued and get thrown under the bus without regard for their unique personhood. Under a program like this a well to-do black immigrant who is not the product of a history of injustice would receive preferential treatment over a non-black person trapped in generational poverty who may have personally endured injustice. Why do white leftist think that blacks are dependent on special treatment from whites? Isn't that white supremacist in and of itself? They are still denying us the dignity of succeeding on our own merits on a level playing field.
  - bleah1000 6y ago
    But what evidence is there that these kinds of projects actually help the people they are trying to help? I mean, not every black person in America today is descended from slaves. It's kind of racist to assume that if you see a black person, they must be a slave descendant. So this project is not necessarily going to benefit the people who were historically discriminated against. Additionally, how do you prevent this project from helping people who are already well off? Since people who have money, or the children of people with money, are more likely to be able to participate and do well. I would argue that there is a good chance that this will benefit rich (or well off) people, who happen to have a particular skin color.
danielscrubs 6y ago
I'm cynical at heart. Anyone else that thinks that some higher up have done something racist and now the PR/HR machinery is working full time preemptively wash the brand?
- stingraycharles 6y ago
  Who knows, another cynical interpretation is that they just want to jump on the bandwagon and hope to gain some marketing exposure.
- whywhywhywhy 6y ago
  It's more just likely people at the top are not very passionate about technology but are very passionate about social issues. I know a lot of people look to Firefox and therefore Mozilla as being a beacon against the big three and browser monoculture but there is evidently a disconnect between what most of us want from Mozilla and what interests the people in charge of Mozilla, judging from the engineers who were let go the other week.
  - cannedslime 6y ago
    But what "systems of oppression" is there really against people of color in America? It seems like there is more systemic oppression against caucasians, that don't get easy access to stuff like affirmative action. I agree that there is systemic racism in the US, but it is the other way around. Caucasians gets shot by police every single day without as much as a media mention. But lo and behold if some black drug dealer fails to comply with basic instructons. As an outsider, I only have laughs and shrugs left for America. And the past months of so called protest made me open the eyes for how big a problem black violence is in America. All the footage of innocent people getting killed trying to protect their businesses, zero mainstream media mention. BLM takes offense to all lives matter, and after seeing BLM protesters run over a racoon and then beat it while its screaming in pain and fear - That made me realize that absolutely no lives matters for the BLM. We can all be thankful that BLM funding will take a drop after the elections are over.
leosarev 6y ago
Wow. Tech writers for MDN? Servo team? Or PR stunt?
- null_deref 6y ago
  I don't think 245k is the amount it takes to pay the MDN or Servo team for more than one month.
  - cannedslime 6y ago
    It could have payed for maintenance in some way, thats for sure.
    - null_deref 6y ago
      That's right
ecmascript 6y ago
So are we supposed to ignore the fact that Mozilla is now openly racist? Does no one realize that stuff like this is as racist as it gets? They literally base the competition on a skin color.
- ppf 6y ago
  I've known for a while that Mozilla's focus is not on producing technically excellent software. However, their latest actions and messages have only accelerated my desire to move away from Firefox - they are now just another "socially-aware" activist group, complete with ambitious ladder-climbing upper management, and apparently burdened with maintaining a browswer.
  - Normille 6y ago
    "Get woke. Go broke" --as the Gabsters say.
    - cannedslime 6y ago
      Gabsters? Isn't that just a true statement? I dont even know what a gabster is, is this the new "alt-right" label to throw around on people you have a mild political disagreeance with? This post is now at -1 score and I still don't know what a gabster is, can you elaborate? Ah I think I figured it out. Just like we call twitter users "Twits" we apparently call gab.ai users gabsters.
      - vladvasiliu 6y ago
        Probably relted to "Gab". Not sure about "alt-right" but from what I know gab was founded as a "censorship-free alternative to Twitter". https://gab.com/ https://gab.com/
tootahe45 6y ago
Yeah Mozilla really need to make it so you can donate to certain things i.e Firefox or TOR browser development. Until they do my money is going elsewhere.
- jdhbbbhb 6y ago
  Tor development is separate from mozilla. You can donate to them directly.
esarbe 6y ago
Yeah, you know. This might not be the best move, right after they had to let go so many developers.
- p49k 6y ago
  The for-profit Mozilla Corporation laid off developers. The not-for-profit Mozilla Foundation is launching this initiative.
  - vladvasiliu 6y ago
    Right. The have absolutely nothing to do with each other, because the Moz Foundation has probably no say whatsoever in the Corporation's decision. Especially since the Corporation is not only wholly owned by the Foundation but they also have a common chair. The first line of "About the Mozilla Corporation" [0]: >The Mozilla Corporation was established in August 2005 as a wholly owned taxable subsidiary that serves the non-profit, public benefit goals of its parent, the Mozilla Foundation (emphasis mine). [0] https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/moco/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/moco/
    - p49k 6y ago
      I’m not sure why you’re being snarky and uncivil. Yes they are related (never said they weren’t), but the Foundation cannot transfer $245k to the Corporation to help fund salaries of workers. The Corp exists to be run as a business and the Foundation exists primarily for advocacy.
      - esarbe 6y ago
        Why not? I mean, seriously. Why cannot the Foundation transfer $245k to the Corporation to help fund salaries of workers? Apparently they can award $245k to an artist, so why cannot they award $245k to a developer? I'm a big fan of Mozilla. Really big fanboi. I've been using a Gecko-based browser since the painful days of the Mozilla Application Suite. When Mozilla released the standalone Firefox, I was sold and it has been my primary browser ever since. But the shenanigans that Mozilla (be it the Corporation or the Foundation) has been up to is really starting to doubt the long-term ability of Mozilla (be it the Corporation or the Foundation) to deliver what to me is their primary product; a software libre browser that is competitive in terms of feature set, usability and speed (and nowadays; respects my privacy). I grant you; the Mozilla Foundation and the Mozilla Corporation are two different legal entities. But for me that doesn't really matter; I want them to deliver the bloody best browser there is, that's why I gave them (the Mozilla Foundation, not the Mozilla Corporation, my bad) my money. If Mozilla (the Foundation) really wants to do advocacy, let them do advocacy for a secure, private, decentralized Internet. That's what their (Mozilla the Corporation) primary product is all about. Trying to have the fingers in all the jars is just bad optics and confuses the heck out of people that want them to focus on a good browser and maybe the surrounding technology. Like for example Common Voice[0] or Servo[1], two projects that are after the layoffs by Mozilla (the Corporation) seriously in danger of failing. [0] https://commonvoice.mozilla.org/en https://commonvoice.mozilla.org/en [1] https://servo.org/ https://servo.org/
cannedslime 6y ago
So after years of scrutiny by their actions, they decided to double down on the marxism? Cool, I guess. I won't be supporting Firefox in the future, I will never test in firefox. If something breaks I will put on a 90'esque message of "Please install a real browser".
divs1210 6y ago
Mozilla REALLY needs to focus on firefox.

18 points by poisonarena 6y ago

randompwd 6y ago

#SaveFirefox #DefundMozilla

ppf 6y ago
As I understand it, the build process for Firefox is now so painful it might be beyond saving.
- stingraycharles 6y ago
  What happened that caused that? I remember from about a decade or two ago it was already relatively involved (on par with OpenOffice and the likes), is it worse now?
  - xmodem 6y ago
    I recently had reason to build both Chromium and Firefox from source and Firefox was considerably simpler, on Windows at least
    - ppf 6y ago
      Fair enough, my information might be out of date.

ed25519FUUU 6y ago

It's curious to me that you can make race a legal requirement for anything.

olliej 6y ago
Ideally you wouldn’t, but if there’s a long history of discrimination against that race/sex/orientation/identity then you need to do that to correct for the historical bias. I’d rather it not exist, but there isn’t really any other corrective measure you can make.
- pure_simplicity 6y ago
  That's simply a false dichotomy. You can very easily tailor social programs to help correct for the effects of historical injustice without resorting to discrimination by simply targetting the effect itself, not the group that was discriminated against. Any group that is disproportionally affected by the effect will be disproportionally helped by the alleviation and remediation of said effect. The argument that we need more racism because of racism is a vicious cycle. I hate all racism, no matter if it's well intentioned. The road to hell is all too often paved with good intentions. Groups do not endure injustice, individuals do. The moment we start thinking of people as competing groups rather than individuals, individuals become devalued and get thrown under the bus without regard for their unique personhood. Under a program like this a well to-do black immigrant who is not the product of a history of injustice would receive preferential treatment over a non-black person trapped in generational poverty who may have personally endured injustice. Why do white leftist think that blacks are dependent on special treatment from whites? Isn't that white supremacist in and of itself? They are still denying us the dignity of succeeding on our own merits on a level playing field.
- bleah1000 6y ago
  But what evidence is there that these kinds of projects actually help the people they are trying to help? I mean, not every black person in America today is descended from slaves. It's kind of racist to assume that if you see a black person, they must be a slave descendant. So this project is not necessarily going to benefit the people who were historically discriminated against. Additionally, how do you prevent this project from helping people who are already well off? Since people who have money, or the children of people with money, are more likely to be able to participate and do well. I would argue that there is a good chance that this will benefit rich (or well off) people, who happen to have a particular skin color.

danielscrubs 6y ago

I'm cynical at heart. Anyone else that thinks that some higher up have done something racist and now the PR/HR machinery is working full time preemptively wash the brand?

stingraycharles 6y ago
Who knows, another cynical interpretation is that they just want to jump on the bandwagon and hope to gain some marketing exposure.
whywhywhywhy 6y ago
It's more just likely people at the top are not very passionate about technology but are very passionate about social issues. I know a lot of people look to Firefox and therefore Mozilla as being a beacon against the big three and browser monoculture but there is evidently a disconnect between what most of us want from Mozilla and what interests the people in charge of Mozilla, judging from the engineers who were let go the other week.
- cannedslime 6y ago
  But what "systems of oppression" is there really against people of color in America? It seems like there is more systemic oppression against caucasians, that don't get easy access to stuff like affirmative action. I agree that there is systemic racism in the US, but it is the other way around. Caucasians gets shot by police every single day without as much as a media mention. But lo and behold if some black drug dealer fails to comply with basic instructons. As an outsider, I only have laughs and shrugs left for America. And the past months of so called protest made me open the eyes for how big a problem black violence is in America. All the footage of innocent people getting killed trying to protect their businesses, zero mainstream media mention. BLM takes offense to all lives matter, and after seeing BLM protesters run over a racoon and then beat it while its screaming in pain and fear - That made me realize that absolutely no lives matters for the BLM. We can all be thankful that BLM funding will take a drop after the elections are over.

leosarev 6y ago

Wow. Tech writers for MDN? Servo team? Or PR stunt?

null_deref 6y ago
I don't think 245k is the amount it takes to pay the MDN or Servo team for more than one month.
- cannedslime 6y ago
  It could have payed for maintenance in some way, thats for sure.
  - null_deref 6y ago
    That's right

ecmascript 6y ago

So are we supposed to ignore the fact that Mozilla is now openly racist? Does no one realize that stuff like this is as racist as it gets? They literally base the competition on a skin color.

ppf 6y ago
I've known for a while that Mozilla's focus is not on producing technically excellent software. However, their latest actions and messages have only accelerated my desire to move away from Firefox - they are now just another "socially-aware" activist group, complete with ambitious ladder-climbing upper management, and apparently burdened with maintaining a browswer.
- Normille 6y ago
  "Get woke. Go broke" --as the Gabsters say.
  - cannedslime 6y ago
    Gabsters? Isn't that just a true statement? I dont even know what a gabster is, is this the new "alt-right" label to throw around on people you have a mild political disagreeance with? This post is now at -1 score and I still don't know what a gabster is, can you elaborate? Ah I think I figured it out. Just like we call twitter users "Twits" we apparently call gab.ai users gabsters.
    - vladvasiliu 6y ago
      Probably relted to "Gab". Not sure about "alt-right" but from what I know gab was founded as a "censorship-free alternative to Twitter". https://gab.com/ https://gab.com/

tootahe45 6y ago

Yeah Mozilla really need to make it so you can donate to certain things i.e Firefox or TOR browser development. Until they do my money is going elsewhere.

jdhbbbhb 6y ago
Tor development is separate from mozilla. You can donate to them directly.

esarbe 6y ago

Yeah, you know. This might not be the best move, right after they had to let go so many developers.

p49k 6y ago
The for-profit Mozilla Corporation laid off developers. The not-for-profit Mozilla Foundation is launching this initiative.
- vladvasiliu 6y ago
  Right. The have absolutely nothing to do with each other, because the Moz Foundation has probably no say whatsoever in the Corporation's decision. Especially since the Corporation is not only wholly owned by the Foundation but they also have a common chair. The first line of "About the Mozilla Corporation" [0]: >The Mozilla Corporation was established in August 2005 as a wholly owned taxable subsidiary that serves the non-profit, public benefit goals of its parent, the Mozilla Foundation (emphasis mine). [0] https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/moco/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/moco/
  - p49k 6y ago
    I’m not sure why you’re being snarky and uncivil. Yes they are related (never said they weren’t), but the Foundation cannot transfer $245k to the Corporation to help fund salaries of workers. The Corp exists to be run as a business and the Foundation exists primarily for advocacy.
    - esarbe 6y ago
      Why not? I mean, seriously. Why cannot the Foundation transfer $245k to the Corporation to help fund salaries of workers? Apparently they can award $245k to an artist, so why cannot they award $245k to a developer? I'm a big fan of Mozilla. Really big fanboi. I've been using a Gecko-based browser since the painful days of the Mozilla Application Suite. When Mozilla released the standalone Firefox, I was sold and it has been my primary browser ever since. But the shenanigans that Mozilla (be it the Corporation or the Foundation) has been up to is really starting to doubt the long-term ability of Mozilla (be it the Corporation or the Foundation) to deliver what to me is their primary product; a software libre browser that is competitive in terms of feature set, usability and speed (and nowadays; respects my privacy). I grant you; the Mozilla Foundation and the Mozilla Corporation are two different legal entities. But for me that doesn't really matter; I want them to deliver the bloody best browser there is, that's why I gave them (the Mozilla Foundation, not the Mozilla Corporation, my bad) my money. If Mozilla (the Foundation) really wants to do advocacy, let them do advocacy for a secure, private, decentralized Internet. That's what their (Mozilla the Corporation) primary product is all about. Trying to have the fingers in all the jars is just bad optics and confuses the heck out of people that want them to focus on a good browser and maybe the surrounding technology. Like for example Common Voice[0] or Servo[1], two projects that are after the layoffs by Mozilla (the Corporation) seriously in danger of failing. [0] https://commonvoice.mozilla.org/en https://commonvoice.mozilla.org/en [1] https://servo.org/ https://servo.org/

cannedslime 6y ago

So after years of scrutiny by their actions, they decided to double down on the marxism? Cool, I guess. I won't be supporting Firefox in the future, I will never test in firefox. If something breaks I will put on a 90'esque message of "Please install a real browser".

divs1210 6y ago

Mozilla REALLY needs to focus on firefox.