4 ms·

SUrely, there's some inefficiency in how numbers are used... 10 quadrillion for 7.5 billion people isn't enough?

by pcurve 6y ago

Mindless2112 6y ago
The credit card number space is not running out of numbers. Also, credit card numbers aren't random; they have a structure[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_card_number#Structure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_card_number#Structure
castratikron 6y ago
"The first six digits represent the country, brand, and the type of card issuer and other elements". The last digit is a check digit so it's actually only 1 billion.
- samatman 6y ago
  1 billion per country/brand/issuer tuple, that is. It still seems like a comfortable amount of numbers.
henearkr 6y ago
The first digits are a header identifying the type of the card, (visa, mastercard...) and probably other characteristics. The main problem is that in Japan everybody has like 5 credit cards, because every big company has its own financial branch and issues cards (maybe to profit from a "reservoir" effect of the accounts?). So you have a credit card linked to your clothes shop, one from your supermarket, one from Rakuten (Japan's Amazon), etc. You get points when you buy things from the company linked to your card. I don't know how it is in US, but it certainly isn't like that in France for example.
- wenc 6y ago
  > The main problem is that in Japan everybody has like 15 credit cards This is a fascinating departure from my expectation, because when I was in Japan, I distinctly noticed that credit cards were not accepted everywhere. One could load money into Suica/Pasmo cards and use those at convenient stores, but I learned that carrying cash was imperative -- Japan seemed very much to be a cash-oriented society.
  - henearkr 6y ago
    No your observation is correct. Japanese people have many credit cards but also pay a lot in cash, and small restaurants for example do not accept cards. So they are now in the absurd situation where they do not have enough credit card numbers, but still many shops do not accept card payment. (I edited my previous comment for realism: it's more 5 cards/person than 15)
- viraptor 6y ago
  "everyone" may be a bit extreme. There seems to be a national goal of going more cashless, but right now they're one of the most cash-based countries: https://www.statista.com/chart/19868/share-of-cash-payments-in-different-countries/ https://www.statista.com/chart/19868/share-of-cash-payments-... Japan had 82% cash transactions compared to 14% in South Korea. From personal experience it's relatively normal to find a food place in Tokyo which has no card reader at all.
  - henearkr 6y ago
    Yeah, lots of credit cards does not mean one can use cashless payment everywhere, paradoxically... It's more 5 cards than 15, I admit... I edited my comment accordingly. It still seems a lot to me, why not just one?
    - viraptor 6y ago
      I was going to agree it's a lot... but then realised every one of my grocery gift cards has a PAN attached, which means I'm going through 2-3 numbers a month myself. (Not in Japan) Then again, I expect the shop to recycle those faster than Visa.
  - kalleboo 6y ago
    Everyone has a bunch of cards, they just don't use them. We have a credit card for a mall, only for the free parking at said mall. We never actually pay anything with it, only scan it in the parking garage. That said, cashless transactions have gone way up in the past year though, though the introduction of PayPay QR code payments (which means that waaay more small mom&pop stores accept a cashless payment system since adopting it is basically free), the government 2-%5% cashback cashless incentive that ended earlier this year, and the coronavirus. It will be interesting to see the new cashless usage numbers next year.
- azernik 6y ago
  The US also has this, but lower adoption rates of NFC wallets mean it's a pain for consumers to take full advantage of the system at a Japanese scale.
- nikanj 6y ago
  Five cards per person is less than a billion cards, vs a quadrillion possible combinations of 15 digits. A drop in the bucket
  - henearkr 6y ago
    You forgot that these 16 digits have a structure, with the 4 or even 8 first ones being determined by the type (visa, mastercard) and the bank/country, etc.
    - nikanj 6y ago
      That's a made-up problem, and the right solution is not adding more digits to the cards.
- GoblinSlayer 6y ago
  FWIW there are multipurpose cards that can store keys for several systems and even implement domain restriction.

SUrely, there's some inefficiency in how numbers are used... 10 quadrillion for 7.5 billion people isn't enough?

by pcurve 6y ago

SUrely, there's some inefficiency in how numbers are used... 10 quadrillion for 7.5 billion people isn't enough?

The credit card number space is not running out of numbers. Also, credit card numbers aren't random; they have a structure[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_card_number#Structure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_card_number#Structure

castratikron 6y ago

"The first six digits represent the country, brand, and the type of card issuer and other elements". The last digit is a check digit so it's actually only 1 billion.

samatman 6y ago
1 billion per country/brand/issuer tuple, that is. It still seems like a comfortable amount of numbers.

henearkr 6y ago

The first digits are a header identifying the type of the card, (visa, mastercard...) and probably other characteristics. The main problem is that in Japan everybody has like 5 credit cards, because every big company has its own financial branch and issues cards (maybe to profit from a "reservoir" effect of the accounts?). So you have a credit card linked to your clothes shop, one from your supermarket, one from Rakuten (Japan's Amazon), etc. You get points when you buy things from the company linked to your card. I don't know how it is in US, but it certainly isn't like that in France for example.

wenc 6y ago
> The main problem is that in Japan everybody has like 15 credit cards This is a fascinating departure from my expectation, because when I was in Japan, I distinctly noticed that credit cards were not accepted everywhere. One could load money into Suica/Pasmo cards and use those at convenient stores, but I learned that carrying cash was imperative -- Japan seemed very much to be a cash-oriented society.
- henearkr 6y ago
  No your observation is correct. Japanese people have many credit cards but also pay a lot in cash, and small restaurants for example do not accept cards. So they are now in the absurd situation where they do not have enough credit card numbers, but still many shops do not accept card payment. (I edited my previous comment for realism: it's more 5 cards/person than 15)
viraptor 6y ago
"everyone" may be a bit extreme. There seems to be a national goal of going more cashless, but right now they're one of the most cash-based countries: https://www.statista.com/chart/19868/share-of-cash-payments-in-different-countries/ https://www.statista.com/chart/19868/share-of-cash-payments-... Japan had 82% cash transactions compared to 14% in South Korea. From personal experience it's relatively normal to find a food place in Tokyo which has no card reader at all.
- henearkr 6y ago
  Yeah, lots of credit cards does not mean one can use cashless payment everywhere, paradoxically... It's more 5 cards than 15, I admit... I edited my comment accordingly. It still seems a lot to me, why not just one?
  - viraptor 6y ago
    I was going to agree it's a lot... but then realised every one of my grocery gift cards has a PAN attached, which means I'm going through 2-3 numbers a month myself. (Not in Japan) Then again, I expect the shop to recycle those faster than Visa.
- kalleboo 6y ago
  Everyone has a bunch of cards, they just don't use them. We have a credit card for a mall, only for the free parking at said mall. We never actually pay anything with it, only scan it in the parking garage. That said, cashless transactions have gone way up in the past year though, though the introduction of PayPay QR code payments (which means that waaay more small mom&pop stores accept a cashless payment system since adopting it is basically free), the government 2-%5% cashback cashless incentive that ended earlier this year, and the coronavirus. It will be interesting to see the new cashless usage numbers next year.
azernik 6y ago
The US also has this, but lower adoption rates of NFC wallets mean it's a pain for consumers to take full advantage of the system at a Japanese scale.
nikanj 6y ago
Five cards per person is less than a billion cards, vs a quadrillion possible combinations of 15 digits. A drop in the bucket
- henearkr 6y ago
  You forgot that these 16 digits have a structure, with the 4 or even 8 first ones being determined by the type (visa, mastercard) and the bank/country, etc.
  - nikanj 6y ago
    That's a made-up problem, and the right solution is not adding more digits to the cards.
GoblinSlayer 6y ago
FWIW there are multipurpose cards that can store keys for several systems and even implement domain restriction.