7 ms·

This post is very confused. If one entity generates the page and the ads, then they can already reasonably easily randomize URLs and circumvent ad blockers. F

by jefftk 6y ago

This post is very confused. If one entity generates the page and the ads, then they can already reasonably easily randomize URLs and circumvent ad blockers. Facebook does this. On the other hand, if one entity generates the page and another handles the ads (the typical situation where a publisher uses an ad network to put ads on their page) then web bundles don't do anything to resolve any of the coordination problems that make url randomization and ad blocker circumvention difficult. I'm currently exploring using WebBundles to serve multiple ads in response to a single ad request, because it allows ads to be served more efficiently while keeping them secure and private, but ad blockers would still prevent the ad js from loading before the ad request was ever sent. (Disclosure: I work on ads at Google)

jakelazaroff 6y ago
> I'm currently exploring using WebBundles to serve multiple ads in response to a single ad request, because it allows ads to be served more efficiently while keeping them secure and private, but ad blockers would still prevent the ad js from loading before the ad request was ever sent. Why is this a use-case that I as a web user should care about? Frankly, I don't find it very comforting that an article raises privacy concerns, and an engineer working on ads at Google responds with "these concerns are misguided; I'm exploring this technology to make ads better."
- jefftk 6y ago
  > Why is this a use-case that I as a web user should care about? If you block ads, then my work will have no effect on you. If you do not block ads, then my work decreases bandwidth usage and makes it harder for ads to deface each other. > I don't find it very comforting that an article raises privacy concerns, and an engineer working on ads at Google responds with... The article describes privacy concerns, but those concerns are based on a misunderstanding of what WebBundles make easier. Specifically, they're concerned about URL randomization, which is no easier with bundles.
  - pes10k 6y ago
    This is just super wrong. With WebBundles I can call 2 different things, in two different WebBundles https://example.org/good.js https://example.org/good.js, and that can be different from what the wider web sees as https://example.org/good.js https://example.org/good.js. Random URLs are just an example of the capability they are not the fundamental problem
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      > With WebBundles I can call 2 different things, in two different WebBundles https://example.org/good.js https://example.org/good.js, and that can be different from what the wider web sees as https://example.org/good.js https://example.org/good.js. I can also do that on my server based on whatever criteria I want, just by returning different content. How is this significantly different than the problem you've brought up?
      - xg15 6y ago
        The criteria are well-known and basically restricted to what is contained in an HTTP request. With web-bundles (like with service workers) the logic which actual resource the URL resolves to is instead deeply embedded into the browser. At least, that's my understanding.
        jefftk 6y ago
        We're talking about what the server decides to put in the initial HTML file you request. Since those are almost never served cacheable to the client, the server can just randomize the URLs it produces.
      - Izkata 6y ago
        Based on the example at [0], my understanding is that no, you can control and serve up "/good.js" from your domain, but webbundles allow you to override "https://example.com/good.js" https://example.com/good.js" while within the context of your bundle - a totally different domain you don't control. [0] https://www.npmjs.com/package/wbn https://www.npmjs.com/package/wbn
sloshnmosh 6y ago
Might I suggest you watch some videos by the late great comedian Bill Hicks
- phone8675309 6y ago
  If only society treated advertising like it treats pornography - require people viewing it to be 18, require that they opt in to it, and allow them to block it voluntarily without stigma. This message brought to you by Subway: Eat Fresh.
  - manigandham 6y ago
    If only society valued paying for most of the content they consume. Reality is the money has to come from somewhere.
    - wombatpm 6y ago
      Society did. Publishing bought into the whole ad network model and shot themselves in the foot thinking they can sell an ad for each view.
      - manigandham 6y ago
        Why can't they sell an ad for each view? They've been doing it just fine.
    - liability 6y ago
      Ads OR payment? Cute theory. Here's the reality: if I pay for a subscription to the NYtimes, I still get ads. If I pay for CNN, I still get ads. If I pay for a movie ticket, I get ads and probably product placement as well (just another form of ad.) So fuck that argument.
      - manigandham 6y ago
        Either the payments aren't enough to cover everything or the service wants to make more. Anyways, the only "theory" is that costs need to be paid, and you can't have no ads and no payments and expect that to work.

by jefftk 6y ago

jakelazaroff 6y ago

> I'm currently exploring using WebBundles to serve multiple ads in response to a single ad request, because it allows ads to be served more efficiently while keeping them secure and private, but ad blockers would still prevent the ad js from loading before the ad request was ever sent. Why is this a use-case that I as a web user should care about? Frankly, I don't find it very comforting that an article raises privacy concerns, and an engineer working on ads at Google responds with "these concerns are misguided; I'm exploring this technology to make ads better."

jefftk 6y ago
> Why is this a use-case that I as a web user should care about? If you block ads, then my work will have no effect on you. If you do not block ads, then my work decreases bandwidth usage and makes it harder for ads to deface each other. > I don't find it very comforting that an article raises privacy concerns, and an engineer working on ads at Google responds with... The article describes privacy concerns, but those concerns are based on a misunderstanding of what WebBundles make easier. Specifically, they're concerned about URL randomization, which is no easier with bundles.
- pes10k 6y ago
  This is just super wrong. With WebBundles I can call 2 different things, in two different WebBundles https://example.org/good.js https://example.org/good.js, and that can be different from what the wider web sees as https://example.org/good.js https://example.org/good.js. Random URLs are just an example of the capability they are not the fundamental problem
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    > With WebBundles I can call 2 different things, in two different WebBundles https://example.org/good.js https://example.org/good.js, and that can be different from what the wider web sees as https://example.org/good.js https://example.org/good.js. I can also do that on my server based on whatever criteria I want, just by returning different content. How is this significantly different than the problem you've brought up?
    - xg15 6y ago
      The criteria are well-known and basically restricted to what is contained in an HTTP request. With web-bundles (like with service workers) the logic which actual resource the URL resolves to is instead deeply embedded into the browser. At least, that's my understanding.
      - jefftk 6y ago
        We're talking about what the server decides to put in the initial HTML file you request. Since those are almost never served cacheable to the client, the server can just randomize the URLs it produces.
    - Izkata 6y ago
      Based on the example at [0], my understanding is that no, you can control and serve up "/good.js" from your domain, but webbundles allow you to override "https://example.com/good.js" https://example.com/good.js" while within the context of your bundle - a totally different domain you don't control. [0] https://www.npmjs.com/package/wbn https://www.npmjs.com/package/wbn

sloshnmosh 6y ago

Might I suggest you watch some videos by the late great comedian Bill Hicks

phone8675309 6y ago
If only society treated advertising like it treats pornography - require people viewing it to be 18, require that they opt in to it, and allow them to block it voluntarily without stigma. This message brought to you by Subway: Eat Fresh.
- manigandham 6y ago
  If only society valued paying for most of the content they consume. Reality is the money has to come from somewhere.
  - wombatpm 6y ago
    Society did. Publishing bought into the whole ad network model and shot themselves in the foot thinking they can sell an ad for each view.
    - manigandham 6y ago
      Why can't they sell an ad for each view? They've been doing it just fine.
  - liability 6y ago
    Ads OR payment? Cute theory. Here's the reality: if I pay for a subscription to the NYtimes, I still get ads. If I pay for CNN, I still get ads. If I pay for a movie ticket, I get ads and probably product placement as well (just another form of ad.) So fuck that argument.
    - manigandham 6y ago
      Either the payments aren't enough to cover everything or the service wants to make more. Anyways, the only "theory" is that costs need to be paid, and you can't have no ads and no payments and expect that to work.