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One way around this is to make surveillance records available to the public through due process like other public government records. This removes the asymmetr

One way around this is to make surveillance records available to the public through due process like other public government records. This removes the asymmetry and it also makes surveillance less attractive in the first place, because those responsible for the surveillance would be forced to expose surveillance records about themselves.

TaylorAlexander 6y ago
That may slightly chip away at asymmetry but it doesn’t remove it. For one, if only LEO officers decide who gets surveillance then mysteriously senators who misbehave won’t get surveillance but poor people will.
boomboomsubban 6y ago
>One way around this is to make surveillance records available to the public through due process like other public government records. I'm fairly sure they already are. Any records of interest get some sort of classified label preventing their release until long past when they matter.
pdonis 6y ago
> One way around this is to make surveillance records available to the public through due process like other public government records. I would agree that a person ought to be able to see whatever surveillance records exist on themselves. However, allowing any member of the public to see all surveillance records, on anyone, strikes me as just compounding the problem--now my private information isn't just seen by the government, it's seen by everybody.
- twblalock 6y ago
  > now my private information isn't just seen by the government, it's seen by everybody. Right, but that's why no reasonable congressman would want your information, because that would also make his/hers available just like yours. The result would be that sensitive personal information would be very unlikely to be collected.
  - pdonis 6y ago
    > The result would be that sensitive personal information would be very unlikely to be collected. I don't think so; I think the result would be that people who had the power would simply bend the rules behind the scenes to make sure any information they didn't want revealed wasn't revealed, much as they do now.
- matz1 6y ago
  Information want to be free. Sooner or latter the information will leak. Especially as technology getting more advance, its getting easier and easier to do surveillance, soon everyone can do that. The sooner we adapt with the life where all surveillance records is public the better. Beside it level the playing field, everyone has the same information.
  - pdonis 6y ago
    > Information want to be free. You're welcome to let all of your private information out for everyone to see if that's what you believe. But people like me who do not want to do that should not be forced to. > The sooner we adapt with the life where all surveillance records is public the better. I strongly disagree.
    - matz1 6y ago
      >You're welcome to let all of your private information out for everyone to see if that's what you believe I don't necessarily want to, I'm just being realistic and pragmatic. >But people like me who do not want to do that should not be forced to. No one is forced to but the inconvenience and the cost of keeping thing private will go up and up.
      - pdonis 6y ago
        > I'm just being realistic and pragmatic. Being realistic and pragmatic doesn't need to mean being defeatist. > the inconvenience and the cost of keeping thing private will go up and up Only if citizens let governments continue to increase their surveillance activities with no oversight and no pushback.
        matz1 6y ago
        I'm not defeatist. I'm not defending less privacy for the sake of less privacy. In the end the goal is to not suffer. Whether its done through less privacy or more privacy doesn't really matter. >Only if citizens let governments continue to increase their surveillance activities with no oversight and no pushback I would rather push for more openness and transparency, open up the surveillance for everyone to reduce the information asymmetries. Or pushing for technology that enable citizen to survilance the government.
gonzo41 6y ago
This would never ever happen. If only bceause after the first release. Everyone would be so terrified of the Intel Agencies that they'd revolt.

TaylorAlexander 6y ago

That may slightly chip away at asymmetry but it doesn’t remove it. For one, if only LEO officers decide who gets surveillance then mysteriously senators who misbehave won’t get surveillance but poor people will.

boomboomsubban 6y ago

>One way around this is to make surveillance records available to the public through due process like other public government records. I'm fairly sure they already are. Any records of interest get some sort of classified label preventing their release until long past when they matter.

pdonis 6y ago

> One way around this is to make surveillance records available to the public through due process like other public government records. I would agree that a person ought to be able to see whatever surveillance records exist on themselves. However, allowing any member of the public to see all surveillance records, on anyone, strikes me as just compounding the problem--now my private information isn't just seen by the government, it's seen by everybody.

twblalock 6y ago
> now my private information isn't just seen by the government, it's seen by everybody. Right, but that's why no reasonable congressman would want your information, because that would also make his/hers available just like yours. The result would be that sensitive personal information would be very unlikely to be collected.
- pdonis 6y ago
  > The result would be that sensitive personal information would be very unlikely to be collected. I don't think so; I think the result would be that people who had the power would simply bend the rules behind the scenes to make sure any information they didn't want revealed wasn't revealed, much as they do now.
matz1 6y ago
Information want to be free. Sooner or latter the information will leak. Especially as technology getting more advance, its getting easier and easier to do surveillance, soon everyone can do that. The sooner we adapt with the life where all surveillance records is public the better. Beside it level the playing field, everyone has the same information.
- pdonis 6y ago
  > Information want to be free. You're welcome to let all of your private information out for everyone to see if that's what you believe. But people like me who do not want to do that should not be forced to. > The sooner we adapt with the life where all surveillance records is public the better. I strongly disagree.
  - matz1 6y ago
    >You're welcome to let all of your private information out for everyone to see if that's what you believe I don't necessarily want to, I'm just being realistic and pragmatic. >But people like me who do not want to do that should not be forced to. No one is forced to but the inconvenience and the cost of keeping thing private will go up and up.
    - pdonis 6y ago
      > I'm just being realistic and pragmatic. Being realistic and pragmatic doesn't need to mean being defeatist. > the inconvenience and the cost of keeping thing private will go up and up Only if citizens let governments continue to increase their surveillance activities with no oversight and no pushback.
      - matz1 6y ago
        I'm not defeatist. I'm not defending less privacy for the sake of less privacy. In the end the goal is to not suffer. Whether its done through less privacy or more privacy doesn't really matter. >Only if citizens let governments continue to increase their surveillance activities with no oversight and no pushback I would rather push for more openness and transparency, open up the surveillance for everyone to reduce the information asymmetries. Or pushing for technology that enable citizen to survilance the government.

gonzo41 6y ago

This would never ever happen. If only bceause after the first release. Everyone would be so terrified of the Intel Agencies that they'd revolt.