5 ms·

What I don't see many talk about is how much harm the belief that they harvest everything is, on top of just the actual deed itself. If I am an organization t

by zionic 6y ago

What I don't see many talk about is how much harm the belief that they harvest everything is, on top of just the actual deed itself. If I am an organization that is well known to be spying on everyone and anything, that means I can very convincingly fabricate evidence against my enemies. It goes beyond simple spying, they now have the ability to manufacture whatever truth they'd like.

eivarv 6y ago
Though not exactly what you're referring to, my impression is that people discuss the chilling effect [0] quite a bit. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect#Chilling_effects_on_Wikipedia_users https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect#Chilling_effec...
- HugeAcumen 6y ago
  Some people do - though likely not as many as discuss Love Island. I think the tech community in particular (with both the awareness and the means) has a duty to the public to make clear what is going on to those less tuned in. So far, it has failed in that to a rather astonishing degree. Probably for exactly the reasons yourself and the OP describe.
- nicholasjarnold 6y ago
  Yes, and this so-called Chilling Effect can have a potentially very negative impact on the ability of a democratic society to thrive and possibly to even survive. Democracies require (open, honest) debate. If we self-censor then we hold back on fully-expressing views or positions during debate. This is one of the fundamental issues that I have with this proliferation of population-scale mass-surveillance (domestically in the US and abroad). It will not lead us into any sort of light, despite the promises about safety or less kiddie pr0n or whatever.
  - 3647e7ee7ru 6y ago
    I'll start caring about chilling effects on speech again when local governments quit encouraging the police to just let riots wear themselves out, damage and deaths be damned. Until that happens I don't really care if the federal government is engaging in these tactics as long as belligerantly violent groups are actually charged and receive jail time.
    - antonvs 6y ago
      > I'll start caring about chilling effects on speech again ... That's ok, responsible people will take care of it while you're busy supporting fascism.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
miketery 6y ago
Not sure if also related or you meant to touch on this point. But reading that made me think the following; this means real evidence will be discounted as well since we perceive those in power to be able to conjure fake evidence. thus eroding trust wholly.
Melting_Harps 6y ago
> What I don't see many talk about is how much harm the belief that they harvest everything is, on top of just the actual deed itself. Snowden, Assange? They've both talk(ed) at great length about the perils of a Society that will self-censor due to the fear of retribution that follows when everything one has said be it in text/phone/online is constantly held in bulk collection. Moreover, if anyone has followed what has occurred in China where dissenters are forced into re-education black op sites and are forced into public apologies, or in other cases they're disappeared altogether, you have what then appears like a very forceful form of cohesive group think. This occurred in HK prior to the passing of the NSL, people were essentially trying to scrub their online presence for fear of retroactive punishment from the CCP [1], who only hours after forcefully passing the bill to great local and international condemnation, started to arrest 'violators.' Which gives the CCP the appearance of a forceful enforcer of its policy writ large, at least on the surface with low hanging fruit like journalists and physicians speaking out about COVID on the mainland, but in reality China is wrought with seemingly permissible corruption provided you have any connection to the CCP. In this respect this isn't a East Vs West issue, but rather one of the oppressed and the oppressors, if Government is to exist at all, I think a mandate of constant surveillance and absolute financial transparency should be in order. I fear Humanity refuses to accept we must create alternatives to the Nation State model, which this pandemic and economic crises has clearly demonstrated to have failed in every conceivable metric. There are outliers, but they tend to be more city-states, which I'm not entirely averse to but can also have the very same entrenched power traps that the nation state model has. If anyone has the time I highly recommend Snowden s recent talk with Naomi Kilne on Vice [2] discussing the path forward to circumvent the Surveillance State/Economy that has been created by the Tech Industry that has only been incredibly sped up in the aftermath of the COVID pandemic and the protest against police violence/crime. At the end the people talent, many of whom hang out here, are the one's that build this tech not the corrupt politician(s), nor the VC big wig. Having them re-evaluate their positions is critical moving forward, as both conclude that this much needed detour will simply not occur from the Leadership. 1: https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Hong-Kongers-erase-digital-footprints-ahead-of-security-laws https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Hong-Kongers-erase-digital-... 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUnbhXtXixc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUnbhXtXixc
- 6y ago

by zionic 6y ago

eivarv 6y ago

Though not exactly what you're referring to, my impression is that people discuss the chilling effect [0] quite a bit. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect#Chilling_effects_on_Wikipedia_users https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect#Chilling_effec...

HugeAcumen 6y ago
Some people do - though likely not as many as discuss Love Island. I think the tech community in particular (with both the awareness and the means) has a duty to the public to make clear what is going on to those less tuned in. So far, it has failed in that to a rather astonishing degree. Probably for exactly the reasons yourself and the OP describe.
nicholasjarnold 6y ago
Yes, and this so-called Chilling Effect can have a potentially very negative impact on the ability of a democratic society to thrive and possibly to even survive. Democracies require (open, honest) debate. If we self-censor then we hold back on fully-expressing views or positions during debate. This is one of the fundamental issues that I have with this proliferation of population-scale mass-surveillance (domestically in the US and abroad). It will not lead us into any sort of light, despite the promises about safety or less kiddie pr0n or whatever.
- 3647e7ee7ru 6y ago
  I'll start caring about chilling effects on speech again when local governments quit encouraging the police to just let riots wear themselves out, damage and deaths be damned. Until that happens I don't really care if the federal government is engaging in these tactics as long as belligerantly violent groups are actually charged and receive jail time.
  - antonvs 6y ago
    > I'll start caring about chilling effects on speech again ... That's ok, responsible people will take care of it while you're busy supporting fascism.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

miketery 6y ago

Not sure if also related or you meant to touch on this point. But reading that made me think the following; this means real evidence will be discounted as well since we perceive those in power to be able to conjure fake evidence. thus eroding trust wholly.

Melting_Harps 6y ago

> What I don't see many talk about is how much harm the belief that they harvest everything is, on top of just the actual deed itself. Snowden, Assange? They've both talk(ed) at great length about the perils of a Society that will self-censor due to the fear of retribution that follows when everything one has said be it in text/phone/online is constantly held in bulk collection. Moreover, if anyone has followed what has occurred in China where dissenters are forced into re-education black op sites and are forced into public apologies, or in other cases they're disappeared altogether, you have what then appears like a very forceful form of cohesive group think. This occurred in HK prior to the passing of the NSL, people were essentially trying to scrub their online presence for fear of retroactive punishment from the CCP [1], who only hours after forcefully passing the bill to great local and international condemnation, started to arrest 'violators.' Which gives the CCP the appearance of a forceful enforcer of its policy writ large, at least on the surface with low hanging fruit like journalists and physicians speaking out about COVID on the mainland, but in reality China is wrought with seemingly permissible corruption provided you have any connection to the CCP. In this respect this isn't a East Vs West issue, but rather one of the oppressed and the oppressors, if Government is to exist at all, I think a mandate of constant surveillance and absolute financial transparency should be in order. I fear Humanity refuses to accept we must create alternatives to the Nation State model, which this pandemic and economic crises has clearly demonstrated to have failed in every conceivable metric. There are outliers, but they tend to be more city-states, which I'm not entirely averse to but can also have the very same entrenched power traps that the nation state model has. If anyone has the time I highly recommend Snowden s recent talk with Naomi Kilne on Vice [2] discussing the path forward to circumvent the Surveillance State/Economy that has been created by the Tech Industry that has only been incredibly sped up in the aftermath of the COVID pandemic and the protest against police violence/crime. At the end the people talent, many of whom hang out here, are the one's that build this tech not the corrupt politician(s), nor the VC big wig. Having them re-evaluate their positions is critical moving forward, as both conclude that this much needed detour will simply not occur from the Leadership. 1: https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Hong-Kongers-erase-digital-footprints-ahead-of-security-laws https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Hong-Kongers-erase-digital-... 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUnbhXtXixc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUnbhXtXixc

6y ago