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> Wikipedia could have been an invaluable resource for the struggling language. Instead, it’s just become another source of ammunition for people wanting to dis

by abeppu 6y ago

> Wikipedia could have been an invaluable resource for the struggling language. Instead, it’s just become another source of ammunition for people wanting to disparage and mock it, all because of this one person and their bizarre fixation on Scots, which unfortunately never extended so far as wanting to properly learn it. How could it have been an invaluable resource for the language? Would actual Scots speakers have used it? Apparently they mostly don't contribute to it. The English wikipedia page on the Scots language says it has <100k native speakers and 1.5M L2 speakers and I'm guessing they're almost all fluent English speakers. How successful would the Scots wikipedia have needed to be actually used as an information resource to Scots speakers given that they can all easily use the extremely actively maintained English wikipedia? It's maybe unfair to make the comparison to a Walmart that sets up in town and causes all the mom and pop shops to die off -- but when you're the "neighbor" of a giant, how do you compete? Maybe I don't get it b/c I don't speak a language that needs active energy to protect. But I think it makes the most sense to focus on institutions and organizations that already have an external, mission-driven reason to produce content (e.g. schools, cultural institutions, governments, regional media) rather than trying to dedicate the volunteer hours (even when competent volunteers can be found) to try to produce an encyclopedia that few will have strong cause to use. (edited to correct a typo)

ploika 6y ago
> Maybe I don't get it b/c I don't speak a language that needs active energy to protect. I do think you're at least partially correct here, with all due respect. I learned Irish (Gaelic) in school and still use the language a fair bit, though I don't live anywhere near a majority Irish-speaking area and I don't need it at work. The Irish language is not in the greatest of health, and the need for community-driven content and interaction is very real. Top-down stuff like TV, radio, books etc are all well and good. They help. But at the same time it's things like face-to-face casual conversation, amateurish podcasts and accessible blogs and memes that make it feel more like a reviving, living language and less like homework. By necessity that means that you need to include and encourage people who don't have a perfect grasp of the language. And sometimes that means that very incorrect stuff is put out there by people who can't do any better, but that's part of the challenge of trying to save a language from extinction.
- umanwizard 6y ago
  Out of curiosity, what do you use Irish for? Given that (AFAIK) virtually all Irish speakers also speak English natively, what is it useful for? (I'm not belittling Irish, btw - I think the effort to keep it alive is super cool and worthwhile).
  - ploika 6y ago
    You probably already suspect as much, but it's not about being useful as such, in much the same way that most art and culture isn't particularly useful in the practical sense. In 1800 more people spoke Irish than spoke Dutch, Swedish, Danish or Finnish. It adds perspective what the value is if you consider what would be lost if another of those languages died back as comprehensively as Irish did, to be replaced by something like English or German. A whole world of poetry, insults and turns of phrase are opened up to me. I can understand the meanings of place names around the country (Baltimore means "the town of the [Downton Abbey-esque] big house"). It's a rebuttal to the notion that the Irish are really just West English, despite their exceptionalism. As for how I use the language; I struggle through novels, I listen to Irish language radio and podcasts (I don't watch much TV, though there is an Irish-language station), I talk to my partner in Irish when we want to discuss something private while in public, I talk to other people in Irish when the opportunity arises.

by abeppu 6y ago

ploika 6y ago

> Maybe I don't get it b/c I don't speak a language that needs active energy to protect. I do think you're at least partially correct here, with all due respect. I learned Irish (Gaelic) in school and still use the language a fair bit, though I don't live anywhere near a majority Irish-speaking area and I don't need it at work. The Irish language is not in the greatest of health, and the need for community-driven content and interaction is very real. Top-down stuff like TV, radio, books etc are all well and good. They help. But at the same time it's things like face-to-face casual conversation, amateurish podcasts and accessible blogs and memes that make it feel more like a reviving, living language and less like homework. By necessity that means that you need to include and encourage people who don't have a perfect grasp of the language. And sometimes that means that very incorrect stuff is put out there by people who can't do any better, but that's part of the challenge of trying to save a language from extinction.

umanwizard 6y ago
Out of curiosity, what do you use Irish for? Given that (AFAIK) virtually all Irish speakers also speak English natively, what is it useful for? (I'm not belittling Irish, btw - I think the effort to keep it alive is super cool and worthwhile).
- ploika 6y ago
  You probably already suspect as much, but it's not about being useful as such, in much the same way that most art and culture isn't particularly useful in the practical sense. In 1800 more people spoke Irish than spoke Dutch, Swedish, Danish or Finnish. It adds perspective what the value is if you consider what would be lost if another of those languages died back as comprehensively as Irish did, to be replaced by something like English or German. A whole world of poetry, insults and turns of phrase are opened up to me. I can understand the meanings of place names around the country (Baltimore means "the town of the [Downton Abbey-esque] big house"). It's a rebuttal to the notion that the Irish are really just West English, despite their exceptionalism. As for how I use the language; I struggle through novels, I listen to Irish language radio and podcasts (I don't watch much TV, though there is an Irish-language station), I talk to my partner in Irish when we want to discuss something private while in public, I talk to other people in Irish when the opportunity arises.