5 ms·

Let me know if I'm wrong, but it seems like Jane Street is going contrary to the HN common belief that a lot of things should be "buy" instead of "build" and ye

by polote 6y ago

Let me know if I'm wrong, but it seems like Jane Street is going contrary to the HN common belief that a lot of things should be "buy" instead of "build" and yet they are quite successful

noir_lord 6y ago
The particularly niche they operate in means that "buy" isn't really an option for them, the stuff they'd be buying hasn't been commoditised yet (and arguably much of it couldn't be since in doing so any advantage it gave you would be immediately diluted). It's a case of an ellipse peg in an elliptic hole.
johnisgood 6y ago
Yep, and they use OCaml! I always feel like I have to point it out since people do not think much of it, have lots of misconceptions of it, and so on.
- geodel 6y ago
  It need to be pointed out because there may be like grand total of dozen companies which uses OCaml so it is something remarkable. It is like paintings from famous painters in billionaire's homes. Now for me and may be for lot of people stuff from Bed Bath and Beyond is just fine on our walls. So for ultra-rich / successful/profitable company might see beauty in Ocaml but most of the world runs fine on run of the mill services in PHP/Java/.net etc.
  - Barrin92 6y ago
    >but most of the world runs fine most of the world doesn't run fine. If airplanes were built like your average software stack they'd drop out of the sky every other day. Development practise at a place like JaneStreet is an example how things ought to be done. I really dislike the analogy of Ocaml as some sort of esoteric billionaire tool. It's just a sound language that everyone can understand, it's not even particularly academic despite its reputation. This is just what software engineering looks like if you actually treat it like... well engineering.
    - kyawzazaw 6y ago
      What development practices do they have that is unique to them?
    - geodel 6y ago
      > If airplanes where built like your average software stack they'd drop out of the sky every other day. I missed to add C/C++ to my list. That would have covered real time systems you mention. > Development practise at a place like JaneStreet is an example how things ought to be done. As much I agree Jane street is doing cutting engineering for their domain, it seems unrealistic that rest of the world is unaware of good software engineering in generic usecases.
      - noir_lord 6y ago
        > it seems unrealistic that rest of the world is unaware of good software engineering in generic use cases. Depends on who is aware and whether they have the clout to actually implement it, the trenches are full of developers who know there are better ways and that those better ways would have a positive RoI but that it wouldn't show up possibly for 3-4 quarters minimum which makes it a hard sell to management if you can get them to even understand it without a tortured analogy - those programmers frequently don't have the authority to enforce the standards particularly when the other half in the trench with them are busy adding to the pile or actively fighting against it. There have been times where I've wanted to shiv (figuratively) a developer who writes the worst most pointless convoluted code after he proclaimed code should be "self documenting". Fortunately these days I'm at a level where at least for my teams I can enforce whatever standard we agree on and if we can't agree then the one I agree on - if we can't reach a consensus I operate on democratic principles, one man, one vote - I'm the man, I have the vote (though I try to avoid having to do that).
  - avasthe 6y ago
    Most of the world doesn't run fine. The manager who was previously an accountant can't see the benefits of reliability, security or performance, and hires some straight-out-of-the-bootcamp people.
- jkaptur 6y ago
  I guess I might have some misconceptions of OCaml. Are there other companies that use it? I ask because whenever someone says "OCaml is used in industry, for example, Jane Street", they say it like it's just one example, but it's always Jane Street.
  - angio 6y ago
    The OCaml website lists some companies it [0], I think there are a bunch of new blockchain startups that are also using OCaml but are not on that page. [0] https://ocaml.org/learn/companies.html https://ocaml.org/learn/companies.html
    - non-entity 6y ago
      Is there something about purely functional languages that make them attractive to blockchain applications? I remember a post on here a little while ago complaining about Haskell adoption in industry was being mostly led by cryptocurrencies.
      - twic 6y ago
        One person might say that the common factor is not being frightened of doing something challenging and unconventional that allows you to achieve extraordinary things. Another might say it was a weakness for snake oil.
      - nesarkvechnep 6y ago
        Just to make it clear, OCaml is not purely functional.
        non-entity 6y ago
        Oh sorry, not sure why I thought it was.
        johnisgood 6y ago
- sweeneyrod 6y ago
  I think some popular misconceptions about OCaml are actually driven by its connection with Jane Street. Because they are the most prominent industrial user, people can think it is good for their niche but not useful outside it, or that it's very academic/difficult to learn/ideologically purist. But actually it's a fine general purpose programming language.
  - johnisgood 6y ago
    I am not sure why one would assume it is niche (someone said OCaml is "super-niche") just because Jane Street is a prominent user of it. In any case, yeah, it is an excellent general purpose programming language. I replaced a scripting language with it. I now use Go and OCaml instead of say, Lua, because I had to reimplement the wheel when I used Lua. Perl and other scripting languages were too slow for my typical use-cases.
gadders 6y ago
I think they would believe that a lot of the things they are building are a source of competitive advantage related to trading, low latency etc. I doubt (for instance) that they have coded up their own HR system.
untog 6y ago
There are no (very few?) universal rules in tech. The HN advice to buy instead of build is correct in the majority of cases where a startup isn't actually doing anything revolutionary on the tech side (and there's nothing wrong with that! Bringing proven tech to an industry that doesn't have it is a great business model). It sounds like Jane Street does not fit that model.
geodel 6y ago
I do not know if it is very difficult to understand. Next food/ clothing delivery startup with a webpage and mobile app : Buy. Cutting edge Wall street firm : Build.
- jrott 6y ago
  Even if you want to make it complex it's if it is core to your business and provides competitive advantage build otherwise buy.

by polote 6y ago

Let me know if I'm wrong, but it seems like Jane Street is going contrary to the HN common belief that a lot of things should be "buy" instead of "build" and yet they are quite successful

noir_lord 6y ago

The particularly niche they operate in means that "buy" isn't really an option for them, the stuff they'd be buying hasn't been commoditised yet (and arguably much of it couldn't be since in doing so any advantage it gave you would be immediately diluted). It's a case of an ellipse peg in an elliptic hole.

johnisgood 6y ago

Yep, and they use OCaml! I always feel like I have to point it out since people do not think much of it, have lots of misconceptions of it, and so on.

geodel 6y ago
It need to be pointed out because there may be like grand total of dozen companies which uses OCaml so it is something remarkable. It is like paintings from famous painters in billionaire's homes. Now for me and may be for lot of people stuff from Bed Bath and Beyond is just fine on our walls. So for ultra-rich / successful/profitable company might see beauty in Ocaml but most of the world runs fine on run of the mill services in PHP/Java/.net etc.
- Barrin92 6y ago
  >but most of the world runs fine most of the world doesn't run fine. If airplanes were built like your average software stack they'd drop out of the sky every other day. Development practise at a place like JaneStreet is an example how things ought to be done. I really dislike the analogy of Ocaml as some sort of esoteric billionaire tool. It's just a sound language that everyone can understand, it's not even particularly academic despite its reputation. This is just what software engineering looks like if you actually treat it like... well engineering.
  - kyawzazaw 6y ago
    What development practices do they have that is unique to them?
  - geodel 6y ago
    > If airplanes where built like your average software stack they'd drop out of the sky every other day. I missed to add C/C++ to my list. That would have covered real time systems you mention. > Development practise at a place like JaneStreet is an example how things ought to be done. As much I agree Jane street is doing cutting engineering for their domain, it seems unrealistic that rest of the world is unaware of good software engineering in generic usecases.
    - noir_lord 6y ago
      > it seems unrealistic that rest of the world is unaware of good software engineering in generic use cases. Depends on who is aware and whether they have the clout to actually implement it, the trenches are full of developers who know there are better ways and that those better ways would have a positive RoI but that it wouldn't show up possibly for 3-4 quarters minimum which makes it a hard sell to management if you can get them to even understand it without a tortured analogy - those programmers frequently don't have the authority to enforce the standards particularly when the other half in the trench with them are busy adding to the pile or actively fighting against it. There have been times where I've wanted to shiv (figuratively) a developer who writes the worst most pointless convoluted code after he proclaimed code should be "self documenting". Fortunately these days I'm at a level where at least for my teams I can enforce whatever standard we agree on and if we can't agree then the one I agree on - if we can't reach a consensus I operate on democratic principles, one man, one vote - I'm the man, I have the vote (though I try to avoid having to do that).
- avasthe 6y ago
  Most of the world doesn't run fine. The manager who was previously an accountant can't see the benefits of reliability, security or performance, and hires some straight-out-of-the-bootcamp people.
jkaptur 6y ago
I guess I might have some misconceptions of OCaml. Are there other companies that use it? I ask because whenever someone says "OCaml is used in industry, for example, Jane Street", they say it like it's just one example, but it's always Jane Street.
- angio 6y ago
  The OCaml website lists some companies it [0], I think there are a bunch of new blockchain startups that are also using OCaml but are not on that page. [0] https://ocaml.org/learn/companies.html https://ocaml.org/learn/companies.html
  - non-entity 6y ago
    Is there something about purely functional languages that make them attractive to blockchain applications? I remember a post on here a little while ago complaining about Haskell adoption in industry was being mostly led by cryptocurrencies.
    - twic 6y ago
      One person might say that the common factor is not being frightened of doing something challenging and unconventional that allows you to achieve extraordinary things. Another might say it was a weakness for snake oil.
    - nesarkvechnep 6y ago
      Just to make it clear, OCaml is not purely functional.
      - non-entity 6y ago
        Oh sorry, not sure why I thought it was.
        johnisgood 6y ago
sweeneyrod 6y ago
I think some popular misconceptions about OCaml are actually driven by its connection with Jane Street. Because they are the most prominent industrial user, people can think it is good for their niche but not useful outside it, or that it's very academic/difficult to learn/ideologically purist. But actually it's a fine general purpose programming language.
- johnisgood 6y ago
  I am not sure why one would assume it is niche (someone said OCaml is "super-niche") just because Jane Street is a prominent user of it. In any case, yeah, it is an excellent general purpose programming language. I replaced a scripting language with it. I now use Go and OCaml instead of say, Lua, because I had to reimplement the wheel when I used Lua. Perl and other scripting languages were too slow for my typical use-cases.

gadders 6y ago

I think they would believe that a lot of the things they are building are a source of competitive advantage related to trading, low latency etc. I doubt (for instance) that they have coded up their own HR system.

untog 6y ago

There are no (very few?) universal rules in tech. The HN advice to buy instead of build is correct in the majority of cases where a startup isn't actually doing anything revolutionary on the tech side (and there's nothing wrong with that! Bringing proven tech to an industry that doesn't have it is a great business model). It sounds like Jane Street does not fit that model.

geodel 6y ago

I do not know if it is very difficult to understand. Next food/ clothing delivery startup with a webpage and mobile app : Buy. Cutting edge Wall street firm : Build.

jrott 6y ago
Even if you want to make it complex it's if it is core to your business and provides competitive advantage build otherwise buy.