6 ms·

> Nobody is forcing you to use a 3rd party app store, but Apple is forcing everyone to go through their store. Many employers do that very thing. How many peop

by wcarey 6y ago

> Nobody is forcing you to use a 3rd party app store, but Apple is forcing everyone to go through their store. Many employers do that very thing. How many people have been compelled by employment circumstances to install Zoom despite its dubious pedigree? What happens when a corporate timecard app exists only in a 3rd party app store?

badsectoracula 6y ago
Again a comparison that doesn't make sense - also employers pay you whereas when you buy an iOS device you pay for it. So not only you give Apple your money but also you give up control to them.
- wcarey 6y ago
  That wasn't a comparison. If 3rd party app stores are a thing, you might be compelled to use them by yet other third parties, contrary to your claim that no one would force you to use third party app stores.
  - badsectoracula 6y ago
    Ah i see, i thought you were comparing employers forcing you to install something with Apple forcing everyone to go through their App Store. Well, in that case, if employers force you to install something then just tell them give you a work phone. Or talk to them, you are adults. And if that doesn't work, well, tough luck. This sounds like trying to solve a malfunctioning workplace problem by making everyone else suffer - it isn't my or Apple's or anyone else's problem that your boss forces you to install shady apps.
    - wcarey 6y ago
      Part of the reason I pay Apple for their devices is that they have offered to solve this problem for me. It's part of the value proposition of their device.
      - badsectoracula 6y ago
        You may see this as a solution, however this (non-)solution creates larger problems by itself as i have repeatedly mentioned in these comments.
        wcarey 6y ago
        I'm not convinced the problems are larger (or, at least, not that they're larger for most people; some people are seriously inconvenience by Apple's policies. I once hit a hard roadblock trying to develop something for the iPhone and had to switch to Android exclusive development; so it goes). And I think having different organizations exploring different tradeoffs in this space is a valuable thing. There are platforms that are more open that Apples and platforms less open. That variety is healthy.
        badsectoracula 6y ago
        I'm not sure what sort of tradeoff is there to explore: there aren't any real (not perceived, like prefering Apple's control that you do not really lose since you can have the option - even by default - stick with Apple, i mean actually real) positives for anyone involved outside of Apple. But the negatives is currently for the users not being in control over the devices they bought (i really cannot fathom how people are fine with that, every response i've read here really sounds like Stockholm syndrome) and in the future having a precedent for other companies to follow - thus affecting not only the people who use Apple now, but also people of the future (also many people taking a "let's see first the bad stuff happening and then we might judge and take some actions" is a problem by itself - by the time this is commonplace it will be way too late to take any real action). And besides, what different organizations exploring what different tradeoffs? Right now the only practical options are Apple and Android, there aren't really that many options as to have a healthy environment and Google isn't immune to making decisions that can have an overall negative impact to the control that people have over the stuff they buy (see their Stadia console as an example and how it completely and absolutely removes any notion of control from people buying games - not even consoles, let alone PCs, feature such loss of control).
wayneftw 6y ago
You can go work somewhere else too. Having a choice is better than not having one, all around. You can argue the changing employers is hard. I can also argue that 50% of my customers use iPhones and so I have to use one and know how they work. I literally cannot have an app business without dealing with Apple. That’s why this is an anti-trust situation.
- wcarey 6y ago
  In the same way, though, that you can suggest I work somewhere else, I can suggest that you run your app business on another platform, so that doesn't seem to advance the argument very much? Plenty of folks make a living on the web or by selling Windows or Linux software. Having choice about some things is better than not having one, all around. But some people choose (!) to delegate their choosing to others in certain fields. For example, the choice of whether to purchase safe meat or unsafe meat is a bad choice to have. It's doubly bad if you aren't skilled at determining the safety quality of meat. That's a choice I'm happy to outsource to a third party. Similarly, I'm happy to outsource a variety of choices about app terms of use to Apple.
  - wayneftw 6y ago
    > I can suggest that you run your app business on another platform... Did you miss the part where I said that 50% of my customers use an iPhone? To be clear: 50% of the general population in the United States uses an iPhone. 90% of the youth market uses an iPhone. That doesn't leave much of a choice for developers at all. You simply cannot have a successful app business in the US without being on Apple's app store. Meanwhile, there are millions of potential employers in the United States.
    - wcarey 6y ago
      For some definition of "app business", sure. But there are plenty of companies making plenty of money in software without touching any app store. To be sure, Apple's popularity puts them in a really good negotiating position with respect to developers who want to sell certain kinds of software.
scarface74 6y ago
Zoom works on the web and when I did install the app, I installed it on my iPad. I wouldn’t let Zoom go anywhere near my computer.
- wcarey 6y ago
  Alas for the lack of breakout rooms when hosting from an iPad.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    Yes. That bit my wife. She loved her iPad but we ended up getting a laptop solely for Zoom and zoom rooms for some volunteer work she does. Off topic rant: I was going to get her Dell. I had forgotten how bad the consumer Dells were. By the time you get a decent one, you might as well get a MacBook Air.

by wcarey 6y ago

badsectoracula 6y ago

Again a comparison that doesn't make sense - also employers pay you whereas when you buy an iOS device you pay for it. So not only you give Apple your money but also you give up control to them.

wcarey 6y ago
That wasn't a comparison. If 3rd party app stores are a thing, you might be compelled to use them by yet other third parties, contrary to your claim that no one would force you to use third party app stores.
- badsectoracula 6y ago
  Ah i see, i thought you were comparing employers forcing you to install something with Apple forcing everyone to go through their App Store. Well, in that case, if employers force you to install something then just tell them give you a work phone. Or talk to them, you are adults. And if that doesn't work, well, tough luck. This sounds like trying to solve a malfunctioning workplace problem by making everyone else suffer - it isn't my or Apple's or anyone else's problem that your boss forces you to install shady apps.
  - wcarey 6y ago
    Part of the reason I pay Apple for their devices is that they have offered to solve this problem for me. It's part of the value proposition of their device.
    - badsectoracula 6y ago
      You may see this as a solution, however this (non-)solution creates larger problems by itself as i have repeatedly mentioned in these comments.
      - wcarey 6y ago
        I'm not convinced the problems are larger (or, at least, not that they're larger for most people; some people are seriously inconvenience by Apple's policies. I once hit a hard roadblock trying to develop something for the iPhone and had to switch to Android exclusive development; so it goes). And I think having different organizations exploring different tradeoffs in this space is a valuable thing. There are platforms that are more open that Apples and platforms less open. That variety is healthy.
        badsectoracula 6y ago
        I'm not sure what sort of tradeoff is there to explore: there aren't any real (not perceived, like prefering Apple's control that you do not really lose since you can have the option - even by default - stick with Apple, i mean actually real) positives for anyone involved outside of Apple. But the negatives is currently for the users not being in control over the devices they bought (i really cannot fathom how people are fine with that, every response i've read here really sounds like Stockholm syndrome) and in the future having a precedent for other companies to follow - thus affecting not only the people who use Apple now, but also people of the future (also many people taking a "let's see first the bad stuff happening and then we might judge and take some actions" is a problem by itself - by the time this is commonplace it will be way too late to take any real action). And besides, what different organizations exploring what different tradeoffs? Right now the only practical options are Apple and Android, there aren't really that many options as to have a healthy environment and Google isn't immune to making decisions that can have an overall negative impact to the control that people have over the stuff they buy (see their Stadia console as an example and how it completely and absolutely removes any notion of control from people buying games - not even consoles, let alone PCs, feature such loss of control).

wayneftw 6y ago

You can go work somewhere else too. Having a choice is better than not having one, all around. You can argue the changing employers is hard. I can also argue that 50% of my customers use iPhones and so I have to use one and know how they work. I literally cannot have an app business without dealing with Apple. That’s why this is an anti-trust situation.

wcarey 6y ago
In the same way, though, that you can suggest I work somewhere else, I can suggest that you run your app business on another platform, so that doesn't seem to advance the argument very much? Plenty of folks make a living on the web or by selling Windows or Linux software. Having choice about some things is better than not having one, all around. But some people choose (!) to delegate their choosing to others in certain fields. For example, the choice of whether to purchase safe meat or unsafe meat is a bad choice to have. It's doubly bad if you aren't skilled at determining the safety quality of meat. That's a choice I'm happy to outsource to a third party. Similarly, I'm happy to outsource a variety of choices about app terms of use to Apple.
- wayneftw 6y ago
  > I can suggest that you run your app business on another platform... Did you miss the part where I said that 50% of my customers use an iPhone? To be clear: 50% of the general population in the United States uses an iPhone. 90% of the youth market uses an iPhone. That doesn't leave much of a choice for developers at all. You simply cannot have a successful app business in the US without being on Apple's app store. Meanwhile, there are millions of potential employers in the United States.
  - wcarey 6y ago
    For some definition of "app business", sure. But there are plenty of companies making plenty of money in software without touching any app store. To be sure, Apple's popularity puts them in a really good negotiating position with respect to developers who want to sell certain kinds of software.

scarface74 6y ago

Zoom works on the web and when I did install the app, I installed it on my iPad. I wouldn’t let Zoom go anywhere near my computer.

wcarey 6y ago
Alas for the lack of breakout rooms when hosting from an iPad.
- scarface74 6y ago
  Yes. That bit my wife. She loved her iPad but we ended up getting a laptop solely for Zoom and zoom rooms for some volunteer work she does. Off topic rant: I was going to get her Dell. I had forgotten how bad the consumer Dells were. By the time you get a decent one, you might as well get a MacBook Air.