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I do not see a nightmare, that is the thing - why do you see one? What you describe is possible with multiple app stores and allowing 3rd party apps - you just

I do not see a nightmare, that is the thing - why do you see one? What you describe is possible with multiple app stores and allowing 3rd party apps - you just do not use those other stores and apps. Nobody is forcing you to use a 3rd party app store, but Apple is forcing everyone to go through their store. You can keep your tightly controlled experience by not using anything else than Apple - but that doesn't mean everyone has to be forced to do the same thing. > You don’t buy a Corolla and get mad that you can’t off road with it, do you? 99.9% of the time such comparisons ignore details and derail discussion, so they aren't very helpful.

ericmay 6y ago
Nobody is forcing you to use an iPhone either. There are plenty of options with different trade offs. Allowing 3rd-party app stores has predictable negative externalities (privacy, security, etc.). Which is why I and others are not interested in that development. Apple is able to make developers engage in less shitty business practices precisely because they can control the distribution of software through the App Store . It’s no surprise that as Apple has increasingly focused on privacy and removing tracking capabilities and other dark patterns that developers are trying to find a way around Apple’s restrictions. It’s not like they all of a sudden implemented a new fee. It’s been there for years. > 99.9%.... I guess this is the .1%? You don’t buy something expecting it to do something completely different. You don’t buy an iPhone expecting to install whatever you want. You don’t buy a Corolla expecting to off-road with it.
- badsectoracula 6y ago
  > I guess this is the .1%? No. > You don’t buy something expecting it to do something completely different. You don’t buy an iPhone expecting to install whatever you want. You don’t buy a Corolla expecting to off-road with it. Apple's current behavior isn't written in stone and dictated by God, it can change.
  - ayyy 6y ago
    It is sad they don't have rooted developer phones available. I'd switch platforms in a second if they started allowing me root on my own device.
    - ziml77 6y ago
      Root access used to be a concern for me, but it became much less useful when Xposed had to enter the cat-and-mouse game against SafetyNet. And now that unlocked bootloaders can't be hidden from SafetyNet, I don't even bother with root. And because of that I've been considering just switching to the next iPhone and going all in on Apple's ecosystem.
      - ayyy 6y ago
        That's true, but it's nice to know it's there so you can have a use for old hardware, or to debug something obscure. More importantly, it's about the type of users it will attract. Being able to have multiple app stores on android is also pretty good. I have an iPhone for work, and it's fine, but I don't know how people live with one. Everything wants to have ads or wants me to pay for it.
- withinboredom 6y ago
  > You don’t buy an iPhone expecting to install whatever you want. I specifically bought an iPhone to facetime my family from another country. I'd love to be able to have my apps from my old android. Or, use facetime from an android... But yeah, I'd love to install whatever I want and that's what I'd expect instead of having to buy everything twice when I switched OSes.
  - veilrap 6y ago
    There are plenty of competitors to Facetime, available across multiple different platforms. Google and Facebook for example enjoy pushing their messaging and video messaging ecosystems across multiple devices. There's nothing unique about Facetime, except it's Apple exclusive.
    - withinboredom 6y ago
      Yeah, the issue is that we're talking about my parents here. I'm happy to use a different service (in fact, I prefer it) but my parents are old and stubborn and refuse to use a different service.
alkonaut 6y ago
> What you describe is possible with multiple app stores and allowing 3rd party apps - you just do not use those other stores and apps That does indeed offer a solution, but I think the result is a fractured ecosystem where eventually apps end up on the "other " app store for one reason or another (They want a feature they can't get on the official one etc.). With apple, devlopers have to bend over backwards to fit the ecosystem. That's both good and bad of course, but it keeps the ecosystem in one place with all apps being in the "safe" app store. I don't have to wonder whether that one app I want is safe to sideload/get from a third party store etc. What I think is hard to understand is that I really really don't assign any value to being able to "do what I want" with my device. I absolutely don't want it to be anything like a PC and I don't mind being told what I can and can't do, for very little benefit, such as a tiny bit of security or a tiny bit of simplicity. It doesn't even have to be a lot.
- badsectoracula 6y ago
  This isn't really much of a concern if all you care about is Apple-like integration: even if there are other options, you can still stick with the options that offer you that integration.
wcarey 6y ago
> Nobody is forcing you to use a 3rd party app store, but Apple is forcing everyone to go through their store. Many employers do that very thing. How many people have been compelled by employment circumstances to install Zoom despite its dubious pedigree? What happens when a corporate timecard app exists only in a 3rd party app store?
- badsectoracula 6y ago
  Again a comparison that doesn't make sense - also employers pay you whereas when you buy an iOS device you pay for it. So not only you give Apple your money but also you give up control to them.
  - wcarey 6y ago
    That wasn't a comparison. If 3rd party app stores are a thing, you might be compelled to use them by yet other third parties, contrary to your claim that no one would force you to use third party app stores.
    - badsectoracula 6y ago
      Ah i see, i thought you were comparing employers forcing you to install something with Apple forcing everyone to go through their App Store. Well, in that case, if employers force you to install something then just tell them give you a work phone. Or talk to them, you are adults. And if that doesn't work, well, tough luck. This sounds like trying to solve a malfunctioning workplace problem by making everyone else suffer - it isn't my or Apple's or anyone else's problem that your boss forces you to install shady apps.
      - wcarey 6y ago
        Part of the reason I pay Apple for their devices is that they have offered to solve this problem for me. It's part of the value proposition of their device.
ribosometronome 6y ago
>I do not see a nightmare, that is the thing - why do you see one? There's a $20 billion/year cryptlocker industry that excludes iPhones thanks to the difference.

ericmay 6y ago

Nobody is forcing you to use an iPhone either. There are plenty of options with different trade offs. Allowing 3rd-party app stores has predictable negative externalities (privacy, security, etc.). Which is why I and others are not interested in that development. Apple is able to make developers engage in less shitty business practices precisely because they can control the distribution of software through the App Store . It’s no surprise that as Apple has increasingly focused on privacy and removing tracking capabilities and other dark patterns that developers are trying to find a way around Apple’s restrictions. It’s not like they all of a sudden implemented a new fee. It’s been there for years. > 99.9%.... I guess this is the .1%? You don’t buy something expecting it to do something completely different. You don’t buy an iPhone expecting to install whatever you want. You don’t buy a Corolla expecting to off-road with it.

badsectoracula 6y ago
> I guess this is the .1%? No. > You don’t buy something expecting it to do something completely different. You don’t buy an iPhone expecting to install whatever you want. You don’t buy a Corolla expecting to off-road with it. Apple's current behavior isn't written in stone and dictated by God, it can change.
- ayyy 6y ago
  It is sad they don't have rooted developer phones available. I'd switch platforms in a second if they started allowing me root on my own device.
  - ziml77 6y ago
    Root access used to be a concern for me, but it became much less useful when Xposed had to enter the cat-and-mouse game against SafetyNet. And now that unlocked bootloaders can't be hidden from SafetyNet, I don't even bother with root. And because of that I've been considering just switching to the next iPhone and going all in on Apple's ecosystem.
    - ayyy 6y ago
      That's true, but it's nice to know it's there so you can have a use for old hardware, or to debug something obscure. More importantly, it's about the type of users it will attract. Being able to have multiple app stores on android is also pretty good. I have an iPhone for work, and it's fine, but I don't know how people live with one. Everything wants to have ads or wants me to pay for it.
withinboredom 6y ago
> You don’t buy an iPhone expecting to install whatever you want. I specifically bought an iPhone to facetime my family from another country. I'd love to be able to have my apps from my old android. Or, use facetime from an android... But yeah, I'd love to install whatever I want and that's what I'd expect instead of having to buy everything twice when I switched OSes.
- veilrap 6y ago
  There are plenty of competitors to Facetime, available across multiple different platforms. Google and Facebook for example enjoy pushing their messaging and video messaging ecosystems across multiple devices. There's nothing unique about Facetime, except it's Apple exclusive.
  - withinboredom 6y ago
    Yeah, the issue is that we're talking about my parents here. I'm happy to use a different service (in fact, I prefer it) but my parents are old and stubborn and refuse to use a different service.

alkonaut 6y ago

> What you describe is possible with multiple app stores and allowing 3rd party apps - you just do not use those other stores and apps That does indeed offer a solution, but I think the result is a fractured ecosystem where eventually apps end up on the "other " app store for one reason or another (They want a feature they can't get on the official one etc.). With apple, devlopers have to bend over backwards to fit the ecosystem. That's both good and bad of course, but it keeps the ecosystem in one place with all apps being in the "safe" app store. I don't have to wonder whether that one app I want is safe to sideload/get from a third party store etc. What I think is hard to understand is that I really really don't assign any value to being able to "do what I want" with my device. I absolutely don't want it to be anything like a PC and I don't mind being told what I can and can't do, for very little benefit, such as a tiny bit of security or a tiny bit of simplicity. It doesn't even have to be a lot.

badsectoracula 6y ago
This isn't really much of a concern if all you care about is Apple-like integration: even if there are other options, you can still stick with the options that offer you that integration.

wcarey 6y ago

> Nobody is forcing you to use a 3rd party app store, but Apple is forcing everyone to go through their store. Many employers do that very thing. How many people have been compelled by employment circumstances to install Zoom despite its dubious pedigree? What happens when a corporate timecard app exists only in a 3rd party app store?

badsectoracula 6y ago
Again a comparison that doesn't make sense - also employers pay you whereas when you buy an iOS device you pay for it. So not only you give Apple your money but also you give up control to them.
- wcarey 6y ago
  That wasn't a comparison. If 3rd party app stores are a thing, you might be compelled to use them by yet other third parties, contrary to your claim that no one would force you to use third party app stores.
  - badsectoracula 6y ago
    Ah i see, i thought you were comparing employers forcing you to install something with Apple forcing everyone to go through their App Store. Well, in that case, if employers force you to install something then just tell them give you a work phone. Or talk to them, you are adults. And if that doesn't work, well, tough luck. This sounds like trying to solve a malfunctioning workplace problem by making everyone else suffer - it isn't my or Apple's or anyone else's problem that your boss forces you to install shady apps.
    - wcarey 6y ago
      Part of the reason I pay Apple for their devices is that they have offered to solve this problem for me. It's part of the value proposition of their device.

ribosometronome 6y ago

>I do not see a nightmare, that is the thing - why do you see one? There's a $20 billion/year cryptlocker industry that excludes iPhones thanks to the difference.