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This is arguably false. The only license that would’ve been withdrawn was Epic’s. Not a single other developer using UE was targeted directly by Apple.

mschuster91 6y ago
> Not a single other developer using UE was targeted directly by Apple. But indirectly. If Epic doesn't have a developer license anymore, they cannot reasonably support their clients in implementing UE on any Apple hardware (and, depending on the licensing terms, they may not even legally support it...).
- philliphaydon 6y ago
  That's not true. Epic which developers Fortnite isn't the same holding company which developers UE. If Epic's game developers accounts are closed it should have no affect to the Epic accounts for UE. * Epic Games, Inc. develops Fortnite and has an Apple developer account that it is released under. * Epic Games International, S.a.r.l. develops Unreal Engine and holds its own Apple developer account. So if the accounts of Epic Games, Inc. were closed, who cares. If Epic Games International's accounts were closed, then yes that's wrong of Apple to do.
  - drevil-v2 6y ago
    But it is effectively the same company though; controlled by the same principals. That would be like Google in Mountain View claiming that they don't avoid paying tax and they are the good guys, but Google SA Netherlands & Ireland who are the assholes who scam countries out of their share of tax revenue (The Dutch Irish sandwich tax loophole that they use).
  - onion2k 6y ago
    This is a quote from the letter that Apple sent to Epic; "If your membership is terminated, you may no longer submit apps to the App Store, and your apps still available for distribution will be removed. You will also lose access to the following programs, technologies, and capabilities:" [...] "- Engineering efforts to improve hardware and software performance of Unreal Engine on Mac and iOS hardware; optimize Unreal Engine on the Mac for creative workflows, virtual sets and their CI/Build Systems; and adoption and support of ARKit features and future VR features into Unreal Engine by their XR team" That is a statement that Apple made saying they will stop all help they give to Epic getting UE running on all Apple hardware. With the other stuff in the letter it makes it very clear that the problem is not just one for Epic Games, but all of Epic. You can read it yourself - https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/epic-v-apple-8-17-20-768927327.pdf https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/epic-v-apple-8-17-20-768927327... (Apple's letter starts on page 51 of the PDF)
    - philliphaydon 6y ago
      Thanks for sharing. Ah so Epic couples it all together.
      - onion2k 6y ago
        Not just Epic. Apple do. If you think Epic Games and Epic International are wholly separate then telling Epic Games "Engineering efforts to improve hardware and software performance of Unreal Engine on Mac and iOS hardware;" would make no sense. It's very clear that Apple are threatening to do things that impact all of Epic in that letter. What's less clear is whether or not Apple would have actually revoked Epic International's developer accounts. You might like to give Apple the benefit of the doubt, but it's ambiguous enough for a court to issue a ruling that Apple aren't allowed to do that. This is obviously not just Epic catastrophizing if the court agreed with them and ruled in their favor on that part.
        sjwright 6y ago
        Common sense ties them together. While the Fortnite app was in violation of terms, it wasn’t the app itself which violated the terms—it was the corporation.
        mschuster91 6y ago
        > Common sense ties them together. The problem is that the US judicial system, thanks to its focus on precedent cases no matter how old they are, and "modern common sense" don't always fit together.
        mcphage 6y ago
        > While the Fortnite app was in violation of terms, it wasn’t the app itself which violated the terms—it was the corporation. Definitely not. If you have multiple apps in the App Store, and one is removed for violating the terms, the rest should not be removed, since the others didn’t violate those terms.
  - modeless 6y ago
    Yes, Epic Games International's accounts were (threatened to be) closed. Yes, it was wrong of Apple to threaten that.
- jeremy_wiebe 6y ago
  Isn’t that an issue Epic has brought in themselves? Their “Fortnight division” has put at risk their “Unreal Engine division”. Or put another way, they have two products at different levels of the stack and they have consciously chosen to risk one (the game) to leverage all their customer’s of their other product (Unreal Engine) onto their side in this war.
  - klmadfejno 6y ago
    That's what the judge is ruling is not allowed. There's no basis for it. Apple can't go after an unrelated business because it's having a temper tantrum and feeling spiteful. The fact that fortnite is built on UE doesn't have any significance here.
    - hn_check 6y ago
      Epic knowingly, intentionally, and publicly defied Apple's rules. In response Apple "threatened" exactly what they threaten every single other company doing the same -- to suspend or terminate your developer accounts if you don't remediate the issue. There is absolutely a basis for it, it certainly isn't "unrelated", and trying to attribute motives like spite or having a "temper tantrum" is baseless nonsense. The court has blocked it because there could be greater harm in the short term (although that is grossly overblown -- the UE wouldn't stop working in the short or even medium term), but don't be confused into thinking this isn't a completely rote, normal response. >The fact that fortnite is built on UE doesn't have any significance here. You understand that Fortnite and UE are made by the same company, right? The canard that it has anything to do with what engine Fortnite uses is absurd noise.
      - damnyou 6y ago
        Wow, this site has completely given into the cult of Apple. Thankfully the judge is a reasonable person who is interested in actual harms more than the letter of a TOS.
    - dkonofalski 6y ago
      They're not going after "unrelated business", though. They cancelled Epic's developer account which is exactly the remediation listed in the agreement for the account. If you violate the terms, your account is suspended. Epic brought this on themselves when they made their move without thinking about how that would affect the rest of their business.
banachtarski 6y ago
As someone that works at an Unreal Engine shop, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
- TheNorthman 6y ago
  As someone that works at an Unreal Engine shop, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
  - ED_Radish 6y ago
    As someone that doesn't work at an Unreal Engine shop, I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- dang 6y ago
  OK, but please don't post a personal attack with zero information. Instead, post information with zero personal attack. Then the rest of can learn something. The problem with berating someone for being ignorant—even if they are ignorant—is that it poisons the commons. (Edit: besides, of course, it not being nice.) https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - banachtarski 6y ago
    Apologies. The injunction ended up passing such that the tooling was not in fact revoked by Apple. Epic relies heavily on deploying Fortnite in order to test the Unreal Engine at scale. Fortnite itself is, in some sense, the test bed from which many improvements and fixes are carried back to the mainline engine. Any studio or publisher relying on the Unreal Engine to deploy to iOS or MacOS would be more or less immediately effected, especially given the volatility of Apple's APIs.
- xsmasher 6y ago

mschuster91 6y ago

> Not a single other developer using UE was targeted directly by Apple. But indirectly. If Epic doesn't have a developer license anymore, they cannot reasonably support their clients in implementing UE on any Apple hardware (and, depending on the licensing terms, they may not even legally support it...).

philliphaydon 6y ago
That's not true. Epic which developers Fortnite isn't the same holding company which developers UE. If Epic's game developers accounts are closed it should have no affect to the Epic accounts for UE. * Epic Games, Inc. develops Fortnite and has an Apple developer account that it is released under. * Epic Games International, S.a.r.l. develops Unreal Engine and holds its own Apple developer account. So if the accounts of Epic Games, Inc. were closed, who cares. If Epic Games International's accounts were closed, then yes that's wrong of Apple to do.
- drevil-v2 6y ago
  But it is effectively the same company though; controlled by the same principals. That would be like Google in Mountain View claiming that they don't avoid paying tax and they are the good guys, but Google SA Netherlands & Ireland who are the assholes who scam countries out of their share of tax revenue (The Dutch Irish sandwich tax loophole that they use).
- onion2k 6y ago
  This is a quote from the letter that Apple sent to Epic; "If your membership is terminated, you may no longer submit apps to the App Store, and your apps still available for distribution will be removed. You will also lose access to the following programs, technologies, and capabilities:" [...] "- Engineering efforts to improve hardware and software performance of Unreal Engine on Mac and iOS hardware; optimize Unreal Engine on the Mac for creative workflows, virtual sets and their CI/Build Systems; and adoption and support of ARKit features and future VR features into Unreal Engine by their XR team" That is a statement that Apple made saying they will stop all help they give to Epic getting UE running on all Apple hardware. With the other stuff in the letter it makes it very clear that the problem is not just one for Epic Games, but all of Epic. You can read it yourself - https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/epic-v-apple-8-17-20-768927327.pdf https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/epic-v-apple-8-17-20-768927327... (Apple's letter starts on page 51 of the PDF)
  - philliphaydon 6y ago
    Thanks for sharing. Ah so Epic couples it all together.
    - onion2k 6y ago
      Not just Epic. Apple do. If you think Epic Games and Epic International are wholly separate then telling Epic Games "Engineering efforts to improve hardware and software performance of Unreal Engine on Mac and iOS hardware;" would make no sense. It's very clear that Apple are threatening to do things that impact all of Epic in that letter. What's less clear is whether or not Apple would have actually revoked Epic International's developer accounts. You might like to give Apple the benefit of the doubt, but it's ambiguous enough for a court to issue a ruling that Apple aren't allowed to do that. This is obviously not just Epic catastrophizing if the court agreed with them and ruled in their favor on that part.
      - sjwright 6y ago
        Common sense ties them together. While the Fortnite app was in violation of terms, it wasn’t the app itself which violated the terms—it was the corporation.
        mschuster91 6y ago
        > Common sense ties them together. The problem is that the US judicial system, thanks to its focus on precedent cases no matter how old they are, and "modern common sense" don't always fit together.
        mcphage 6y ago
        > While the Fortnite app was in violation of terms, it wasn’t the app itself which violated the terms—it was the corporation. Definitely not. If you have multiple apps in the App Store, and one is removed for violating the terms, the rest should not be removed, since the others didn’t violate those terms.
- modeless 6y ago
  Yes, Epic Games International's accounts were (threatened to be) closed. Yes, it was wrong of Apple to threaten that.
jeremy_wiebe 6y ago
Isn’t that an issue Epic has brought in themselves? Their “Fortnight division” has put at risk their “Unreal Engine division”. Or put another way, they have two products at different levels of the stack and they have consciously chosen to risk one (the game) to leverage all their customer’s of their other product (Unreal Engine) onto their side in this war.
- klmadfejno 6y ago
  That's what the judge is ruling is not allowed. There's no basis for it. Apple can't go after an unrelated business because it's having a temper tantrum and feeling spiteful. The fact that fortnite is built on UE doesn't have any significance here.
  - hn_check 6y ago
    Epic knowingly, intentionally, and publicly defied Apple's rules. In response Apple "threatened" exactly what they threaten every single other company doing the same -- to suspend or terminate your developer accounts if you don't remediate the issue. There is absolutely a basis for it, it certainly isn't "unrelated", and trying to attribute motives like spite or having a "temper tantrum" is baseless nonsense. The court has blocked it because there could be greater harm in the short term (although that is grossly overblown -- the UE wouldn't stop working in the short or even medium term), but don't be confused into thinking this isn't a completely rote, normal response. >The fact that fortnite is built on UE doesn't have any significance here. You understand that Fortnite and UE are made by the same company, right? The canard that it has anything to do with what engine Fortnite uses is absurd noise.
    - damnyou 6y ago
      Wow, this site has completely given into the cult of Apple. Thankfully the judge is a reasonable person who is interested in actual harms more than the letter of a TOS.
  - dkonofalski 6y ago
    They're not going after "unrelated business", though. They cancelled Epic's developer account which is exactly the remediation listed in the agreement for the account. If you violate the terms, your account is suspended. Epic brought this on themselves when they made their move without thinking about how that would affect the rest of their business.

banachtarski 6y ago

As someone that works at an Unreal Engine shop, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

TheNorthman 6y ago
As someone that works at an Unreal Engine shop, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
- ED_Radish 6y ago
  As someone that doesn't work at an Unreal Engine shop, I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
dang 6y ago
OK, but please don't post a personal attack with zero information. Instead, post information with zero personal attack. Then the rest of can learn something. The problem with berating someone for being ignorant—even if they are ignorant—is that it poisons the commons. (Edit: besides, of course, it not being nice.) https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- banachtarski 6y ago
  Apologies. The injunction ended up passing such that the tooling was not in fact revoked by Apple. Epic relies heavily on deploying Fortnite in order to test the Unreal Engine at scale. Fortnite itself is, in some sense, the test bed from which many improvements and fixes are carried back to the mainline engine. Any studio or publisher relying on the Unreal Engine to deploy to iOS or MacOS would be more or less immediately effected, especially given the volatility of Apple's APIs.
xsmasher 6y ago