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Most of ones work should be in the shell all the time, because automation tasks are every day phenomena (or should be). Otherwise, if its GUI oriented, you will

Most of ones work should be in the shell all the time, because automation tasks are every day phenomena (or should be). Otherwise, if its GUI oriented, you will still have to learn CLI variant sooner or later and not only its harder or almost impossible to automate, but such automation is usually flaky as well. Shell should be considered basic and most important interaction with computer with anything else deemed as optional. The big problem is that almost all of the shell's are stuck in the previous century, except PowerShell.

jabirali 6y ago
> The big problem is that almost all of the shell's are stuck in the previous century, except PowerShell. Another exception is Nushell, which seems to be partly inspired by PowerShell, and has some very appealing ideas. However, given the time Fish needed to steal even a small market share from Bash and Zsh, it will likely take a long time before something even more radical goes mainstream. Unless of course a major player were to back this new shell, like when Microsoft pushed PowerShell and Apple pushed Zsh.
- majkinetor 6y ago
  > Another exception is Nushell I was talking about production ready systems. Nushell is far from it ATM, and will certainly be so in the next half decade.
oblio 6y ago
The bad news is shell adoption. The biggest selling point of a shell is ubiquity. Zsh for many, many years was basically Bash with more features but not endorsed by GNU. Bash was released in June 1989. Zsh was released in December 1990. Yet Zsh has replaced Bash only on MacOS, only about 1 year ago and only because of Bash licensing issues (new Bash versions are under GPL3 instead of 2 and Apple hates GPL3 because it's against their locked down devices). 29 years to replace the default shell on just 1 platform... despite almost bug-for-bug compatibility, POSIX support, extra features. I wish new shells good luck!
cuddlybacon 6y ago
> Otherwise, if its GUI oriented, you will still have to learn CLI variant sooner or later and not only its harder or almost impossible to automate, but such automation is usually flaky as well. Is it? Or is it that us compsci and computer engineering folks aren't used to it and don't know much about it? A Japanese instructional YouTuber I watch did a tour of his setup, and in it he shows off a lot of automation he uses to make his work faster, more consistent, and less error prone. The relevant part starts around here and lasts throughout the rest of the video (its in english): https://youtu.be/TGgbSmCoZFA?t=390 https://youtu.be/TGgbSmCoZFA?t=390 I think part of it is there is already a buttload of CLI driven tools for us, so there isn't a need for us to rise above the skill floor for GUI automation. But to just assume it is hard or impossible because we don't know is just the same as people new to CLIs saying they are hard or impossible.
- majkinetor 6y ago
  I don't assume. You assume stuff about me. :) The GUI is heterogeneous world. Linux doesn't have tools AFAIK work mentioning because it didn't need them due to CLI. Tools like xdotool are very limited. Windows had much better tools, such as AutoIt, AHK etc. This was because they all were created prior to PowerShell when there was no other option that encompasses all apps. And PowerShell doesn't deal with GUI too, although you could force it. However, big part of those scripts depend on current theme, window sizing, even positions. To create good script is not easy.

jabirali 6y ago

> The big problem is that almost all of the shell's are stuck in the previous century, except PowerShell. Another exception is Nushell, which seems to be partly inspired by PowerShell, and has some very appealing ideas. However, given the time Fish needed to steal even a small market share from Bash and Zsh, it will likely take a long time before something even more radical goes mainstream. Unless of course a major player were to back this new shell, like when Microsoft pushed PowerShell and Apple pushed Zsh.

majkinetor 6y ago
> Another exception is Nushell I was talking about production ready systems. Nushell is far from it ATM, and will certainly be so in the next half decade.

oblio 6y ago

The bad news is shell adoption. The biggest selling point of a shell is ubiquity. Zsh for many, many years was basically Bash with more features but not endorsed by GNU. Bash was released in June 1989. Zsh was released in December 1990. Yet Zsh has replaced Bash only on MacOS, only about 1 year ago and only because of Bash licensing issues (new Bash versions are under GPL3 instead of 2 and Apple hates GPL3 because it's against their locked down devices). 29 years to replace the default shell on just 1 platform... despite almost bug-for-bug compatibility, POSIX support, extra features. I wish new shells good luck!

cuddlybacon 6y ago

> Otherwise, if its GUI oriented, you will still have to learn CLI variant sooner or later and not only its harder or almost impossible to automate, but such automation is usually flaky as well. Is it? Or is it that us compsci and computer engineering folks aren't used to it and don't know much about it? A Japanese instructional YouTuber I watch did a tour of his setup, and in it he shows off a lot of automation he uses to make his work faster, more consistent, and less error prone. The relevant part starts around here and lasts throughout the rest of the video (its in english): https://youtu.be/TGgbSmCoZFA?t=390 https://youtu.be/TGgbSmCoZFA?t=390 I think part of it is there is already a buttload of CLI driven tools for us, so there isn't a need for us to rise above the skill floor for GUI automation. But to just assume it is hard or impossible because we don't know is just the same as people new to CLIs saying they are hard or impossible.

majkinetor 6y ago
I don't assume. You assume stuff about me. :) The GUI is heterogeneous world. Linux doesn't have tools AFAIK work mentioning because it didn't need them due to CLI. Tools like xdotool are very limited. Windows had much better tools, such as AutoIt, AHK etc. This was because they all were created prior to PowerShell when there was no other option that encompasses all apps. And PowerShell doesn't deal with GUI too, although you could force it. However, big part of those scripts depend on current theme, window sizing, even positions. To create good script is not easy.