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That may be a valid technical complaint, but the problem remains—we create devices that are designed to kill humans, autonomously, without human decision inputs

That may be a valid technical complaint, but the problem remains—we create devices that are designed to kill humans, autonomously, without human decision inputs. From a different perspective you might think of guns and bombs as having similar problems—a human might decide to pull the trigger, but the human involved has limited control over who is killed and what is destroyed.

chrisco255 6y ago
Well let me know when the mines are walking around and deploying themselves. In the meantime they're not AI.
- klodolph 6y ago
  Let me know if I understand your priorities correctly—you care about whether the word “AI” is being used correctly, but you are not interested in discussing whether machines are autonomously killing humans? I think this has to be a pretty classic example of the way discourse can get derailed on HN, Stack Overflow, or the like—Alice has an interesting point to make, but Bob takes the floor to point out that Alice used a word incorrectly, even though he knows what Alice meant. The discussion about landmines is actually a good point—the legal language around landmines has evolved somewhat over the years and you might hear them referred to as “LAWs” these days, which stands for “Lethal Autonomous Weapons”. So many of the the same treaties will regulate both autonomous drones and landmines, with the same language.
  - chrisco255 6y ago
    It's not. Landmines aren't placed randomly. They also do not discriminate in what they kill. They are a simple explosive with a step trigger or proximity sensor. That does not an AI make. It completely deludes the definition of AI to call any switch based mechanism an AI. Words and meanings matter and it cannot mean whatever you want it to mean or it loses all capacity to communicate an idea.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - JackFr 6y ago
      Is an elevator an autonomous vehicle?
      - klodolph 6y ago
        If we're going to dive into the rabbit hole of "what is exactly the right word here" I would have to say that an elevator is an automatic vehicle.
    - klodolph 6y ago
      > Words and meanings matter and it cannot mean whatever you want it to mean or it loses all capacity to communicate an idea. Words and meanings are not equally important. Words are only there to communicate meaning. You can communicate meaning without words, and you can even communicate the correct meaning with incorrect words. There's an interesting discussion to be had here, but "are landmines AI" isn't it.
      - chrisco255 6y ago
        Fine I'll bite but I still think the conversation is asinine. Landmines are not placed randomly. They are intentionally placed to protect or guard an area. They don't make decisions about targets, they simply react. Of course there's a fundamental difference in strapping warheads to an AI controlled vehicle and allowing it to select and determine its own targets...and dumb switch based landmines. The latter will work as intended: if someone steps on the mine, the mine goes kaboom. There's no risk of the mine uprooting itself and carrying itself into an urban civilian population center.
        klodolph 6y ago
        > There's no risk of the mine uprooting itself and carrying itself into an urban civilian population center. And yet, landmines kill an estimated 15-20,000 civilians each year. About one in five are children. All because someone decided to defend an area. You say this is “working as intended”, but—how can this be the intended result? Automatic weapon systems allow you to make decisions about who lives and dies, and they let you escape responsibility by making those deaths occur at a different time/place from when and where you caused those deaths. If you were defending an area with teammates and friends’ lives on the line, you might be a little less careful about how your decisions affect the lives of civilians—especially the civilian deaths are uncertain and distant.

chrisco255 6y ago

Well let me know when the mines are walking around and deploying themselves. In the meantime they're not AI.

klodolph 6y ago
Let me know if I understand your priorities correctly—you care about whether the word “AI” is being used correctly, but you are not interested in discussing whether machines are autonomously killing humans? I think this has to be a pretty classic example of the way discourse can get derailed on HN, Stack Overflow, or the like—Alice has an interesting point to make, but Bob takes the floor to point out that Alice used a word incorrectly, even though he knows what Alice meant. The discussion about landmines is actually a good point—the legal language around landmines has evolved somewhat over the years and you might hear them referred to as “LAWs” these days, which stands for “Lethal Autonomous Weapons”. So many of the the same treaties will regulate both autonomous drones and landmines, with the same language.
- chrisco255 6y ago
  It's not. Landmines aren't placed randomly. They also do not discriminate in what they kill. They are a simple explosive with a step trigger or proximity sensor. That does not an AI make. It completely deludes the definition of AI to call any switch based mechanism an AI. Words and meanings matter and it cannot mean whatever you want it to mean or it loses all capacity to communicate an idea.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - JackFr 6y ago
    Is an elevator an autonomous vehicle?
    - klodolph 6y ago
      If we're going to dive into the rabbit hole of "what is exactly the right word here" I would have to say that an elevator is an automatic vehicle.
  - klodolph 6y ago
    > Words and meanings matter and it cannot mean whatever you want it to mean or it loses all capacity to communicate an idea. Words and meanings are not equally important. Words are only there to communicate meaning. You can communicate meaning without words, and you can even communicate the correct meaning with incorrect words. There's an interesting discussion to be had here, but "are landmines AI" isn't it.
    - chrisco255 6y ago
      Fine I'll bite but I still think the conversation is asinine. Landmines are not placed randomly. They are intentionally placed to protect or guard an area. They don't make decisions about targets, they simply react. Of course there's a fundamental difference in strapping warheads to an AI controlled vehicle and allowing it to select and determine its own targets...and dumb switch based landmines. The latter will work as intended: if someone steps on the mine, the mine goes kaboom. There's no risk of the mine uprooting itself and carrying itself into an urban civilian population center.
      - klodolph 6y ago
        > There's no risk of the mine uprooting itself and carrying itself into an urban civilian population center. And yet, landmines kill an estimated 15-20,000 civilians each year. About one in five are children. All because someone decided to defend an area. You say this is “working as intended”, but—how can this be the intended result? Automatic weapon systems allow you to make decisions about who lives and dies, and they let you escape responsibility by making those deaths occur at a different time/place from when and where you caused those deaths. If you were defending an area with teammates and friends’ lives on the line, you might be a little less careful about how your decisions affect the lives of civilians—especially the civilian deaths are uncertain and distant.