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I'm assuming combat aircraft are capable of delivering more G's than a human body can handle, though pilots train to sustain brief bouts of high G for quick man

I'm assuming combat aircraft are capable of delivering more G's than a human body can handle, though pilots train to sustain brief bouts of high G for quick maneuvering - is this limit factored into to the "AI player" handling? Is it meant to simulate another human pilot or is it human versus the physical limits of a machine?

tempestn 6y ago
Since the human player was in a simulator, the limits of the human body weren't a factor here. As for whether the jets are capable of delivering more Gs than a human body can handle, I'm speculating, but I'm not sure it would make sense for current jets to be designed to do so, at least not by a large margin, since that capacity would be wasted. Future jets without human pilots will certainly be able to do so though, which will make the contest even more lopsided.
dragontamer 6y ago
The last match was apparently with both players (the AI and human) simulating a 9-Gs maneuver. Because it was a simulation, the human didn't black out. Its just a game. Albeit a well simulated game close to dogfighting "reality", but its a game nonetheless.
chiph 6y ago
If I were building an AI commanded aircraft I would have it use every G the airframe could handle. No pilot means fewer maneuvering limitations and an increased chance of victory. An intermediate step could be an AI-assisted aircraft. It might be better at setting up shots, and still work within the physical limitations of the human inside. Something not mentioned is an AI powered plane's ability to more-rapidly change from positive to negative G's (not sure if this is technically called jerk or not). A human has a really tough time making that transition.
- inetknght 6y ago
  There was another discussion a couple months ago [0] which linked to an MIT lecture on Youtube about the F-22 and its design. At 40 minutes in [1], he describes a scenario with an F-15 where the pilot could rip the wings off of the plane. He contrasts that the F-22's software was designed to make the most use of control surfaces and limiters to prevent that. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23588760 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23588760 [1]: https://youtu.be/Evhrk5tY-Yo?t=2428 https://youtu.be/Evhrk5tY-Yo?t=2428
  - PhantomGremlin 6y ago
    But it's relatively easy to create an unmanned airframe that can maneuver at +/- 20g's. The pilot has been the limiting factor for quite some time. An unmanned aircraft could laughably outmaneuver an F-22. The AI is the tricky part.
- moneytide1 6y ago
  Yeah thats alot of force. I'm sure every drop of steel/alum/titanium has been thoroughly alloyed/pressed/treated - frame could flex at rate of 15-20G for up to 2 seconds? Dogfighters see one another pull up (or dive initiate) and expect a loop, and so they think in maneuver sequences that occur in 5-10 second chunks. Also a cadence of countermeasure ejection turn-taking to deplete opponent heat-seeking payload, punctuated in between fixed projectile fire. "Checkmate" occurs when a dogfighter has successfully "landed" a loop or sequence of maneuvers that gives them a shot behind their opponent. I'm wondering if the modern combat aircraft would have gimballed barrels and auto-aiming (non-projectile speed of light high intensity laser could melt a fuel tank). If this were true, then by default pilots are already setting up shots as you say using a form of AI assistance. The question I have is, auto-aiming aside, how would an NN understand how to coordinate these "chess moves". This question becomes irrelevant if suddenly there could be a positive to negative G change mid-loop that no seasoned dogfighter could ever expect to happen.
  - chiph 6y ago
    > frame could flex at rate of 15-20G for up to 2 seconds? Current fighters wear out after so many flight hours. What puts the majority of these hours on is pilot training. With an AI commanded aircraft, there's little need to actually fly it, other than to demonstrate capability occasionally so that potential opponents see that you have a credible offense. So you build them to essentially be disposable - rather than design for a 10,000 hour lifetime, you design for a 500 hour (rather intense!) lifetime.
nickff 6y ago
Most current fighter aircraft have airframe stress limits below 9G, especially when loaded. Building an airplane to handle more Gs makes it heavier, which makes it less maneuverable.

tempestn 6y ago

Since the human player was in a simulator, the limits of the human body weren't a factor here. As for whether the jets are capable of delivering more Gs than a human body can handle, I'm speculating, but I'm not sure it would make sense for current jets to be designed to do so, at least not by a large margin, since that capacity would be wasted. Future jets without human pilots will certainly be able to do so though, which will make the contest even more lopsided.

dragontamer 6y ago

The last match was apparently with both players (the AI and human) simulating a 9-Gs maneuver. Because it was a simulation, the human didn't black out. Its just a game. Albeit a well simulated game close to dogfighting "reality", but its a game nonetheless.

chiph 6y ago

If I were building an AI commanded aircraft I would have it use every G the airframe could handle. No pilot means fewer maneuvering limitations and an increased chance of victory. An intermediate step could be an AI-assisted aircraft. It might be better at setting up shots, and still work within the physical limitations of the human inside. Something not mentioned is an AI powered plane's ability to more-rapidly change from positive to negative G's (not sure if this is technically called jerk or not). A human has a really tough time making that transition.

inetknght 6y ago
There was another discussion a couple months ago [0] which linked to an MIT lecture on Youtube about the F-22 and its design. At 40 minutes in [1], he describes a scenario with an F-15 where the pilot could rip the wings off of the plane. He contrasts that the F-22's software was designed to make the most use of control surfaces and limiters to prevent that. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23588760 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23588760 [1]: https://youtu.be/Evhrk5tY-Yo?t=2428 https://youtu.be/Evhrk5tY-Yo?t=2428
- PhantomGremlin 6y ago
  But it's relatively easy to create an unmanned airframe that can maneuver at +/- 20g's. The pilot has been the limiting factor for quite some time. An unmanned aircraft could laughably outmaneuver an F-22. The AI is the tricky part.
moneytide1 6y ago
Yeah thats alot of force. I'm sure every drop of steel/alum/titanium has been thoroughly alloyed/pressed/treated - frame could flex at rate of 15-20G for up to 2 seconds? Dogfighters see one another pull up (or dive initiate) and expect a loop, and so they think in maneuver sequences that occur in 5-10 second chunks. Also a cadence of countermeasure ejection turn-taking to deplete opponent heat-seeking payload, punctuated in between fixed projectile fire. "Checkmate" occurs when a dogfighter has successfully "landed" a loop or sequence of maneuvers that gives them a shot behind their opponent. I'm wondering if the modern combat aircraft would have gimballed barrels and auto-aiming (non-projectile speed of light high intensity laser could melt a fuel tank). If this were true, then by default pilots are already setting up shots as you say using a form of AI assistance. The question I have is, auto-aiming aside, how would an NN understand how to coordinate these "chess moves". This question becomes irrelevant if suddenly there could be a positive to negative G change mid-loop that no seasoned dogfighter could ever expect to happen.
- chiph 6y ago
  > frame could flex at rate of 15-20G for up to 2 seconds? Current fighters wear out after so many flight hours. What puts the majority of these hours on is pilot training. With an AI commanded aircraft, there's little need to actually fly it, other than to demonstrate capability occasionally so that potential opponents see that you have a credible offense. So you build them to essentially be disposable - rather than design for a 10,000 hour lifetime, you design for a 500 hour (rather intense!) lifetime.

nickff 6y ago

Most current fighter aircraft have airframe stress limits below 9G, especially when loaded. Building an airplane to handle more Gs makes it heavier, which makes it less maneuverable.