6 ms·

I know this is a popular rebuttal, but are video games consoles really comparable to phones, which are nothing but general purpose computers?

akersten 6y ago
What is the difference between the capabilities of the console hardware and the phone hardware? The console hardware is actually more powerful. PS3's were used as general purpose computers until Sony removed OtherOS functionality. This is nothing but defensive "don't sue us next" posturing by Microsoft. Consoles are just as general purpose as a phone. The only difference is the software veneer running on top.
- pkaye 6y ago
  Those game systems allows purchasing from physical stores. Does Apple allow that?
  - threeseed 6y ago
    Many (or even most) PS5 users will not be able to purchase from physical stores since the cheapest model does not ship with a BluRay drive. And it's likely PS5 Pro or PS6 will not support this model at all.
    - romanoderoma 6y ago
      I can sell digital subscriptions on after market for console games Can I sell my iPhone apps?
      - threeseed 6y ago
        PS4 games are tied to your account just like iOS. So yes you can sell your iPhone apps the same way you sell your PS4 games i.e. by selling your entire account. But in both cases this is against the terms and conditions and so it's likely this account will be terminated.
        romanoderoma 6y ago
        If iPhones had the same rules of PSN Apple wouldn't be so rich "If you want to play on another PS4 that isn't your primary console, you can download any game you've bought on the PS Store as long as you sign into PSN. Only you'll be able to start the games you've downloaded, and you can only be logged into two consoles at any one time: your primary PS4 and one other secondary one (like a friend's). The good news is there's no limit on the number of systems you can download your games to. You have to be logged in in order to play, but from the sounds of things this means you can share digital games with as many mates as you like, though only one of these secondary consoles will be able to play a title at any given time and you'll have to tell them your password so they can log in. As has been mentioned before, the situation with discs remains the same as ever. Sony has reiterated that, "You can share disc games with your friends and play used disc games on your PS4 system just like you can on a PlayStation 3 system. You do not have to connect to the Internet or pay any usage fees to play used games."
  - akersten 6y ago
    It's an unimportant distinction. It doesn't matter that you got your Microsoft-store approved copy of Gears of War from Gamestop instead of the Microsoft app store. MS still gets their cut, and that application still had to be approved by them. The core similarity to iOS and Apple's app store is: Third party applications cannot run on the Xbox without Microsoft review, approval, and fee. It doesn't matter that it's a physical copy or not. You, an independent developer, can't just create an Xbox game and get it running without MS approval, no matter whether you wanted to sell it on the app store or as a physical copy.
    - pkaye 6y ago
      How does this compare to Google? You can develop your own app and side load it. And you can have third part app stores.
      - akersten 6y ago
        Yep, I'd say Google's closer to doing the right thing here comparatively, having at least a non-terrible path to running unsigned APKs. I would put Apple, Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo in the same bucket of "makes hardware that can run software, but only software they approve." Whether this is something we as a society should allow, I won't comment on, but I will say that Epic should either have a grievance with all of them or none of them. Microsoft and Epic are strange bedfellows and I can't see this headline as anything other than a nervous preemption on Microsoft's part.
        fomine3 6y ago
        I against to put smartphone platform and game console in the same bucket on antitrust perspective because there's only two viable players in smartphone platform market (on gaming, 3 major platforms + open PC platform + smartphone platforms) and it's mandatory device for modern life.
Rebelgecko 6y ago
I don't see why video game consoles are any less general purpose computers than phones. Its easier to install Fedora on a PS3 than an iPhone
vernie 6y ago
The PS4, PS5, Xbox One and Xbox One Series X all run more or less the same type of AMD CPU & GPU. They all have HDMI And USB type A ports. They're much closer to a desktop PC than any smartphone.
Jtsummers 6y ago
I think a case could be made for it, yes. The original Xbox was, in fact, a general purpose computer in disguise (barely, lots of people took advantage of that capability). There have been Linux versions released for PlayStation. It's not like 80s and 90s consoles which were much more limited and more clearly streamlined to just play games (limited or no internal memory, limited input device support, though some of them supported keyboards and could even be hooked up to modems). The lock down on gaming consoles today is mostly artificial.
rpdillon 6y ago
100% agree. Game consoles are entertainment, but our lives are run through our smartphone. It tracks our location, is required by many employers so you can run job-related apps, supports multiple financial activities like banking, investing, and payments, and acts as the primary 2FA device for many folks. Comparing the capabilities of the hardware is beside the point: it's about the scope of the intended/expected usage.
- threeseed 6y ago
  Most of these apply to anything with a browser. So if PS5 ships with a browser again does it magically shift to being a computer ?
  - rpdillon 6y ago
    They're all computers. The point is that folks expect to use their smartphones for a vast array of tasks, and they are _expected_ to use their smartphones for these tasks (by family, employers, friends, merchants, etc.) This is a social problem much more than a technical one, as I see it.
  - romanoderoma 6y ago
    Do you bring your PS5 with you in your pocket?
    - threeseed 6y ago
      My computer doesn't fit in my pocket. So by your definition it isn't a computer then ?
      - romanoderoma 6y ago
        It doesn't fit the definition of personal device Without my phone I could not use my bank's or GitHub's account A locked console is not much of a problem like a locked smartphone Even a locked computer is less problematic Apple sold 2.2 billion iPhones in ~10 years Sony only sold 440 million consoles in ~30 years
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
DivisionSol 6y ago
Yes. Game consoles are just as much “general purpose computers” as phones are. Volume and ubiquity doesn’t change that (modern) game consoles have the architecture required to run anything you want, even easier than needing to compile for Arm through Xcode. One could argue that any console pre-CD days were specialized computing devices that required additional circuitry to run (cartridges.) But in my mind, any console that downloads contents of a storage medium to RAM and executes it is general purpose. You could make Spreadsheets for the Xbox or PlayStation or Switch, if you so chose.
- WWLink 6y ago
  The funny thing is, up until around the time of the PS2, you could still buy unlicensed console games. For example: https://tcrf.net/Category:Unlicensed_Genesis_games https://tcrf.net/Category:Unlicensed_Genesis_games https://nintendo.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_unlicensed_games https://nintendo.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_unlicensed_games In a way, I really do think the term "general purpose computer" should denote a standard for hardware that anyone can write software for. Both Microsoft and Apple are rather notorious for trying to kill this. https://www.pcworld.com/article/248342/windows_8_secure_boot_the_controversy_continues.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/248342/windows_8_secure_boot... The question of "where to draw the line" is an interesting one. People don't complain about it with consoles because you can just buy the game disks anywhere (including some list of retailers, and used from ebay/craigslist/wherever). Even though making a game for a console requires licensing and specific developer tools that - like iOS, access can be granted and revoked. With iOS, Apple sells the idea that the iPad is a computer pretty hard. Yet it's not. It's an Apple Terminal. Just like the iPhone is.
makomk 6y ago
The current generation of video games consoles are all x86-based systems with Radeon graphics, USB, Bluetooth, HDMI out, etc - they're basically full-on desktop class PCs with a few minor changes and a lot of lockdown. One of the big console hacking groups even managed to get the Linux versions of Steam and Portal 2 running on the PS4, with some slight hacks to the graphics drivers to deal with the slightly modified GPU.
- romanoderoma 6y ago
  That proves that consoles are more open than iPhones where no other OS than iOS can run

akersten 6y ago

What is the difference between the capabilities of the console hardware and the phone hardware? The console hardware is actually more powerful. PS3's were used as general purpose computers until Sony removed OtherOS functionality. This is nothing but defensive "don't sue us next" posturing by Microsoft. Consoles are just as general purpose as a phone. The only difference is the software veneer running on top.

pkaye 6y ago
Those game systems allows purchasing from physical stores. Does Apple allow that?
- threeseed 6y ago
  Many (or even most) PS5 users will not be able to purchase from physical stores since the cheapest model does not ship with a BluRay drive. And it's likely PS5 Pro or PS6 will not support this model at all.
  - romanoderoma 6y ago
    I can sell digital subscriptions on after market for console games Can I sell my iPhone apps?
    - threeseed 6y ago
      PS4 games are tied to your account just like iOS. So yes you can sell your iPhone apps the same way you sell your PS4 games i.e. by selling your entire account. But in both cases this is against the terms and conditions and so it's likely this account will be terminated.
      - romanoderoma 6y ago
        If iPhones had the same rules of PSN Apple wouldn't be so rich "If you want to play on another PS4 that isn't your primary console, you can download any game you've bought on the PS Store as long as you sign into PSN. Only you'll be able to start the games you've downloaded, and you can only be logged into two consoles at any one time: your primary PS4 and one other secondary one (like a friend's). The good news is there's no limit on the number of systems you can download your games to. You have to be logged in in order to play, but from the sounds of things this means you can share digital games with as many mates as you like, though only one of these secondary consoles will be able to play a title at any given time and you'll have to tell them your password so they can log in. As has been mentioned before, the situation with discs remains the same as ever. Sony has reiterated that, "You can share disc games with your friends and play used disc games on your PS4 system just like you can on a PlayStation 3 system. You do not have to connect to the Internet or pay any usage fees to play used games."
- akersten 6y ago
  It's an unimportant distinction. It doesn't matter that you got your Microsoft-store approved copy of Gears of War from Gamestop instead of the Microsoft app store. MS still gets their cut, and that application still had to be approved by them. The core similarity to iOS and Apple's app store is: Third party applications cannot run on the Xbox without Microsoft review, approval, and fee. It doesn't matter that it's a physical copy or not. You, an independent developer, can't just create an Xbox game and get it running without MS approval, no matter whether you wanted to sell it on the app store or as a physical copy.
  - pkaye 6y ago
    How does this compare to Google? You can develop your own app and side load it. And you can have third part app stores.
    - akersten 6y ago
      Yep, I'd say Google's closer to doing the right thing here comparatively, having at least a non-terrible path to running unsigned APKs. I would put Apple, Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo in the same bucket of "makes hardware that can run software, but only software they approve." Whether this is something we as a society should allow, I won't comment on, but I will say that Epic should either have a grievance with all of them or none of them. Microsoft and Epic are strange bedfellows and I can't see this headline as anything other than a nervous preemption on Microsoft's part.
      - fomine3 6y ago
        I against to put smartphone platform and game console in the same bucket on antitrust perspective because there's only two viable players in smartphone platform market (on gaming, 3 major platforms + open PC platform + smartphone platforms) and it's mandatory device for modern life.

Rebelgecko 6y ago

I don't see why video game consoles are any less general purpose computers than phones. Its easier to install Fedora on a PS3 than an iPhone

vernie 6y ago

The PS4, PS5, Xbox One and Xbox One Series X all run more or less the same type of AMD CPU & GPU. They all have HDMI And USB type A ports. They're much closer to a desktop PC than any smartphone.

Jtsummers 6y ago

I think a case could be made for it, yes. The original Xbox was, in fact, a general purpose computer in disguise (barely, lots of people took advantage of that capability). There have been Linux versions released for PlayStation. It's not like 80s and 90s consoles which were much more limited and more clearly streamlined to just play games (limited or no internal memory, limited input device support, though some of them supported keyboards and could even be hooked up to modems). The lock down on gaming consoles today is mostly artificial.

rpdillon 6y ago

100% agree. Game consoles are entertainment, but our lives are run through our smartphone. It tracks our location, is required by many employers so you can run job-related apps, supports multiple financial activities like banking, investing, and payments, and acts as the primary 2FA device for many folks. Comparing the capabilities of the hardware is beside the point: it's about the scope of the intended/expected usage.

threeseed 6y ago
Most of these apply to anything with a browser. So if PS5 ships with a browser again does it magically shift to being a computer ?
- rpdillon 6y ago
  They're all computers. The point is that folks expect to use their smartphones for a vast array of tasks, and they are _expected_ to use their smartphones for these tasks (by family, employers, friends, merchants, etc.) This is a social problem much more than a technical one, as I see it.
- romanoderoma 6y ago
  Do you bring your PS5 with you in your pocket?
  - threeseed 6y ago
    My computer doesn't fit in my pocket. So by your definition it isn't a computer then ?
    - romanoderoma 6y ago
      It doesn't fit the definition of personal device Without my phone I could not use my bank's or GitHub's account A locked console is not much of a problem like a locked smartphone Even a locked computer is less problematic Apple sold 2.2 billion iPhones in ~10 years Sony only sold 440 million consoles in ~30 years

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

DivisionSol 6y ago

Yes. Game consoles are just as much “general purpose computers” as phones are. Volume and ubiquity doesn’t change that (modern) game consoles have the architecture required to run anything you want, even easier than needing to compile for Arm through Xcode. One could argue that any console pre-CD days were specialized computing devices that required additional circuitry to run (cartridges.) But in my mind, any console that downloads contents of a storage medium to RAM and executes it is general purpose. You could make Spreadsheets for the Xbox or PlayStation or Switch, if you so chose.

WWLink 6y ago
The funny thing is, up until around the time of the PS2, you could still buy unlicensed console games. For example: https://tcrf.net/Category:Unlicensed_Genesis_games https://tcrf.net/Category:Unlicensed_Genesis_games https://nintendo.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_unlicensed_games https://nintendo.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_unlicensed_games In a way, I really do think the term "general purpose computer" should denote a standard for hardware that anyone can write software for. Both Microsoft and Apple are rather notorious for trying to kill this. https://www.pcworld.com/article/248342/windows_8_secure_boot_the_controversy_continues.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/248342/windows_8_secure_boot... The question of "where to draw the line" is an interesting one. People don't complain about it with consoles because you can just buy the game disks anywhere (including some list of retailers, and used from ebay/craigslist/wherever). Even though making a game for a console requires licensing and specific developer tools that - like iOS, access can be granted and revoked. With iOS, Apple sells the idea that the iPad is a computer pretty hard. Yet it's not. It's an Apple Terminal. Just like the iPhone is.

makomk 6y ago

The current generation of video games consoles are all x86-based systems with Radeon graphics, USB, Bluetooth, HDMI out, etc - they're basically full-on desktop class PCs with a few minor changes and a lot of lockdown. One of the big console hacking groups even managed to get the Linux versions of Steam and Portal 2 running on the PS4, with some slight hacks to the graphics drivers to deal with the slightly modified GPU.

romanoderoma 6y ago
That proves that consoles are more open than iPhones where no other OS than iOS can run