7 ms·

This is pretty funny because Xbox has the same store restrictions (impossible to install from another source, all games approved by them, takes a revenue percen

This is pretty funny because Xbox has the same store restrictions (impossible to install from another source, all games approved by them, takes a revenue percentage) Apple does.

addicted 6y ago
I know this is a popular rebuttal, but are video games consoles really comparable to phones, which are nothing but general purpose computers?
- akersten 6y ago
  What is the difference between the capabilities of the console hardware and the phone hardware? The console hardware is actually more powerful. PS3's were used as general purpose computers until Sony removed OtherOS functionality. This is nothing but defensive "don't sue us next" posturing by Microsoft. Consoles are just as general purpose as a phone. The only difference is the software veneer running on top.
  - pkaye 6y ago
    Those game systems allows purchasing from physical stores. Does Apple allow that?
    - threeseed 6y ago
      Many (or even most) PS5 users will not be able to purchase from physical stores since the cheapest model does not ship with a BluRay drive. And it's likely PS5 Pro or PS6 will not support this model at all.
      - romanoderoma 6y ago
        I can sell digital subscriptions on after market for console games Can I sell my iPhone apps?
        threeseed 6y ago
        PS4 games are tied to your account just like iOS. So yes you can sell your iPhone apps the same way you sell your PS4 games i.e. by selling your entire account. But in both cases this is against the terms and conditions and so it's likely this account will be terminated.
        romanoderoma 6y ago
        If iPhones had the same rules of PSN Apple wouldn't be so rich "If you want to play on another PS4 that isn't your primary console, you can download any game you've bought on the PS Store as long as you sign into PSN. Only you'll be able to start the games you've downloaded, and you can only be logged into two consoles at any one time: your primary PS4 and one other secondary one (like a friend's). The good news is there's no limit on the number of systems you can download your games to. You have to be logged in in order to play, but from the sounds of things this means you can share digital games with as many mates as you like, though only one of these secondary consoles will be able to play a title at any given time and you'll have to tell them your password so they can log in. As has been mentioned before, the situation with discs remains the same as ever. Sony has reiterated that, "You can share disc games with your friends and play used disc games on your PS4 system just like you can on a PlayStation 3 system. You do not have to connect to the Internet or pay any usage fees to play used games."
    - akersten 6y ago
      It's an unimportant distinction. It doesn't matter that you got your Microsoft-store approved copy of Gears of War from Gamestop instead of the Microsoft app store. MS still gets their cut, and that application still had to be approved by them. The core similarity to iOS and Apple's app store is: Third party applications cannot run on the Xbox without Microsoft review, approval, and fee. It doesn't matter that it's a physical copy or not. You, an independent developer, can't just create an Xbox game and get it running without MS approval, no matter whether you wanted to sell it on the app store or as a physical copy.
      - pkaye 6y ago
        How does this compare to Google? You can develop your own app and side load it. And you can have third part app stores.
        akersten 6y ago
        Yep, I'd say Google's closer to doing the right thing here comparatively, having at least a non-terrible path to running unsigned APKs. I would put Apple, Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo in the same bucket of "makes hardware that can run software, but only software they approve." Whether this is something we as a society should allow, I won't comment on, but I will say that Epic should either have a grievance with all of them or none of them. Microsoft and Epic are strange bedfellows and I can't see this headline as anything other than a nervous preemption on Microsoft's part.
        fomine3 6y ago
        I against to put smartphone platform and game console in the same bucket on antitrust perspective because there's only two viable players in smartphone platform market (on gaming, 3 major platforms + open PC platform + smartphone platforms) and it's mandatory device for modern life.
- Rebelgecko 6y ago
  I don't see why video game consoles are any less general purpose computers than phones. Its easier to install Fedora on a PS3 than an iPhone
- vernie 6y ago
  The PS4, PS5, Xbox One and Xbox One Series X all run more or less the same type of AMD CPU & GPU. They all have HDMI And USB type A ports. They're much closer to a desktop PC than any smartphone.
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  I think a case could be made for it, yes. The original Xbox was, in fact, a general purpose computer in disguise (barely, lots of people took advantage of that capability). There have been Linux versions released for PlayStation. It's not like 80s and 90s consoles which were much more limited and more clearly streamlined to just play games (limited or no internal memory, limited input device support, though some of them supported keyboards and could even be hooked up to modems). The lock down on gaming consoles today is mostly artificial.
- rpdillon 6y ago
  100% agree. Game consoles are entertainment, but our lives are run through our smartphone. It tracks our location, is required by many employers so you can run job-related apps, supports multiple financial activities like banking, investing, and payments, and acts as the primary 2FA device for many folks. Comparing the capabilities of the hardware is beside the point: it's about the scope of the intended/expected usage.
  - threeseed 6y ago
    Most of these apply to anything with a browser. So if PS5 ships with a browser again does it magically shift to being a computer ?
    - rpdillon 6y ago
      They're all computers. The point is that folks expect to use their smartphones for a vast array of tasks, and they are _expected_ to use their smartphones for these tasks (by family, employers, friends, merchants, etc.) This is a social problem much more than a technical one, as I see it.
    - romanoderoma 6y ago
      Do you bring your PS5 with you in your pocket?
      - threeseed 6y ago
        My computer doesn't fit in my pocket. So by your definition it isn't a computer then ?
        romanoderoma 6y ago
        It doesn't fit the definition of personal device Without my phone I could not use my bank's or GitHub's account A locked console is not much of a problem like a locked smartphone Even a locked computer is less problematic Apple sold 2.2 billion iPhones in ~10 years Sony only sold 440 million consoles in ~30 years
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- DivisionSol 6y ago
  Yes. Game consoles are just as much “general purpose computers” as phones are. Volume and ubiquity doesn’t change that (modern) game consoles have the architecture required to run anything you want, even easier than needing to compile for Arm through Xcode. One could argue that any console pre-CD days were specialized computing devices that required additional circuitry to run (cartridges.) But in my mind, any console that downloads contents of a storage medium to RAM and executes it is general purpose. You could make Spreadsheets for the Xbox or PlayStation or Switch, if you so chose.
  - WWLink 6y ago
    The funny thing is, up until around the time of the PS2, you could still buy unlicensed console games. For example: https://tcrf.net/Category:Unlicensed_Genesis_games https://tcrf.net/Category:Unlicensed_Genesis_games https://nintendo.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_unlicensed_games https://nintendo.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_unlicensed_games In a way, I really do think the term "general purpose computer" should denote a standard for hardware that anyone can write software for. Both Microsoft and Apple are rather notorious for trying to kill this. https://www.pcworld.com/article/248342/windows_8_secure_boot_the_controversy_continues.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/248342/windows_8_secure_boot... The question of "where to draw the line" is an interesting one. People don't complain about it with consoles because you can just buy the game disks anywhere (including some list of retailers, and used from ebay/craigslist/wherever). Even though making a game for a console requires licensing and specific developer tools that - like iOS, access can be granted and revoked. With iOS, Apple sells the idea that the iPad is a computer pretty hard. Yet it's not. It's an Apple Terminal. Just like the iPhone is.
- makomk 6y ago
  The current generation of video games consoles are all x86-based systems with Radeon graphics, USB, Bluetooth, HDMI out, etc - they're basically full-on desktop class PCs with a few minor changes and a lot of lockdown. One of the big console hacking groups even managed to get the Linux versions of Steam and Portal 2 running on the PS4, with some slight hacks to the graphics drivers to deal with the slightly modified GPU.
  - romanoderoma 6y ago
    That proves that consoles are more open than iPhones where no other OS than iOS can run
firemanx 6y ago
This was mentioned in one of the other threads about this - but you can purchase XBox games outside the Microsoft Store platform just fine - Best Buy, Amazon, Walmart, even resell on eBay, and Microsoft doesn't take a cut. Apple does not allow for this model.
- hobofan 6y ago
  I may be misinformed, but I'm pretty sure that Microsoft also takes a cut from physically distributed XBox games. EDIT: Apparently during the Xbox 360 days, that was ~20%. Couldn't find any newer numbers.
  - spicybright 6y ago
    Yes, I'm equally mis-informed, but allowing companies to make games for your console requires some payment to the creator of the console to allow that. It's how consoles are sold at a loss, but make it up through game sales.
  - pbalau 6y ago
    For the first transaction MS most likely gets a cut, but after that you can resell xbox games (at least the ones sold on physical media). You can't resell ios apps.
    - alextheparrot 6y ago
      While true, this seems completely orthogonal to the financial relationship between the developer and platform owner
  - gamblor956 6y ago
    You're misinformed. Microsoft receives a fee from developers that participate in their licensing program, which is generally a royalty on each sale ranging from 1% to 30% depending on the negotiating leverage of the publisher. Developers are not required to participate in that program to sell games/software for the xBox, and some don't, but MS doesn't guarantee that any unlicensed software will work with the current version of the system or any (software) updates to the system. The same is true of Sony as well.
wayneftw 6y ago
You think game consoles are nearly as important to society as smart phones are, or as ubiquitous?
- jtsiskin 6y ago
  No. But having the same software distribution monopoly on their device which Epic is challenging seems hypocritical to me.
  - romanoderoma 6y ago
    True, in fact is is quite different Epic doesn't make Epic HW that only runs Epic software or the software you can buy on Epic store, chosen by Epic that also takes 30% on any sell
izacus 6y ago
First of all, I can buy Xbox games in many stores - GameStop, MediaMarkt, etc. etc. iOS devices (especially iPads) are marketed as general purpose computers and as such should be compared with Windows and Linux where software authors can: - Distribute their app without approval of the platform owner. - Can freely communicate about pricing and availability of their software. Apple forbids even talking about lower prices or other platforms, essentially forcing us developers to mislead and misinform customers of their platforms. It's deeply against the principles of a free market competition.
- robertlagrant 6y ago
  Sigh. Various comments already pointing out console vendors also take a cut from physical game sales. I don't know where the "especially iPads" comes from - they are the only ones that could come even close to not being called a watch or a phone. What else apart from iPads are you talking about?
  - chongli 6y ago
    They only take a cut from original sales, not the used game market. You can't resell your iOS apps because they're tied to your account.
    - basch 6y ago
      How many unsigned, unlicensed, un-xbox branded printed discs end up at game markets? I'm not sure ive ever seen an "xbox-compatible" disc at a store. Microsoft is still largely controlling distribution.
    - Jtsummers 6y ago
      You can't resell them because you're purchasing a digitally licensed product. You have the same issue with most digital content. You can't resell your Amazon Kindle, Amazon Music, or Amazon Video purchases. You can't resell anything bought from Steam. You can't resell anything bought in the Windows app store. You can't resell anything bought through Google Play. You can't resell digitally purchased Switch games. You can't resell anything bought through, I'd wager, the majority of current digital market places. Nothing about this situation is unique to Apple.
thekyle 6y ago
I think it comes down to the way they're marketed towards consumers. Video game consoles are marketed as appliances that do only one thing (play video games). Apple markets iDevices as "your next computer".
partiallypro 6y ago
Phones aren't really a "luxury" anymore, they are a necessity to life. A gaming console is not. Apple also sells their products at a HUGE profit margin of 30%+ where Microsoft/Sony often sell their gaming hardware at a loss and make it up in software fees.
- threeseed 6y ago
  > Phones aren't really a "luxury" anymore, they are a necessity to life Tell that to the billions of people without one. And interestingly with us in Australia being under a mandatory COVID-19 stay at home order I have not used my phone in over a week. I can do everything it does on my laptop just fine e.g. messaging, banking etc. Food, shelter etc are necessities. Phone is just a nice to have.
  - romanoderoma 6y ago
    Can you really iMessage with your non Apple pc? Or develop iOS apps with it? Or test them? For many people being able to do it makes the difference between a salary and not being able to pay the rent As much as "a nice have" it looks, and I agree it somewhat is, that's not the full story.
    - threeseed 6y ago
      Yes I can develop and test iOS apps on my Mac without a phone. And there are online services that provide real-world phones if you do need to test it. Or I can just use Testflight and have beta test users do it.
      - romanoderoma 6y ago
        Yes, but I wrote > with your __non__ Apple pc?
      - romanoderoma 6y ago
        Ti be clear the point was: if my Android phone breaks or is stolen and I am on the other side of the World I can enter any store buy a 50$ replacement, put the SIM in, sync my contacts and call back home With Apple phones that's not possible If you develop Apple apps you need Apple HW, another hidden tax to be paid to be part of the ecosystem I think a company shouldn't be allowed to sell billions of devices that people rely on for daily activities, but that owners cannot control Even if life can go on without smartphones Life can also go on without refrigerators or washing machines, but if you buy one vendors don't lock customers in
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
romanoderoma 6y ago
But you can still use developer tools on Windows

This is pretty funny because Xbox has the same store restrictions (impossible to install from another source, all games approved by them, takes a revenue percentage) Apple does.

addicted 6y ago

I know this is a popular rebuttal, but are video games consoles really comparable to phones, which are nothing but general purpose computers?

akersten 6y ago
What is the difference between the capabilities of the console hardware and the phone hardware? The console hardware is actually more powerful. PS3's were used as general purpose computers until Sony removed OtherOS functionality. This is nothing but defensive "don't sue us next" posturing by Microsoft. Consoles are just as general purpose as a phone. The only difference is the software veneer running on top.
- pkaye 6y ago
  Those game systems allows purchasing from physical stores. Does Apple allow that?
  - threeseed 6y ago
    Many (or even most) PS5 users will not be able to purchase from physical stores since the cheapest model does not ship with a BluRay drive. And it's likely PS5 Pro or PS6 will not support this model at all.
    - romanoderoma 6y ago
      I can sell digital subscriptions on after market for console games Can I sell my iPhone apps?
      - threeseed 6y ago
        PS4 games are tied to your account just like iOS. So yes you can sell your iPhone apps the same way you sell your PS4 games i.e. by selling your entire account. But in both cases this is against the terms and conditions and so it's likely this account will be terminated.
        romanoderoma 6y ago
        If iPhones had the same rules of PSN Apple wouldn't be so rich "If you want to play on another PS4 that isn't your primary console, you can download any game you've bought on the PS Store as long as you sign into PSN. Only you'll be able to start the games you've downloaded, and you can only be logged into two consoles at any one time: your primary PS4 and one other secondary one (like a friend's). The good news is there's no limit on the number of systems you can download your games to. You have to be logged in in order to play, but from the sounds of things this means you can share digital games with as many mates as you like, though only one of these secondary consoles will be able to play a title at any given time and you'll have to tell them your password so they can log in. As has been mentioned before, the situation with discs remains the same as ever. Sony has reiterated that, "You can share disc games with your friends and play used disc games on your PS4 system just like you can on a PlayStation 3 system. You do not have to connect to the Internet or pay any usage fees to play used games."
  - akersten 6y ago
    It's an unimportant distinction. It doesn't matter that you got your Microsoft-store approved copy of Gears of War from Gamestop instead of the Microsoft app store. MS still gets their cut, and that application still had to be approved by them. The core similarity to iOS and Apple's app store is: Third party applications cannot run on the Xbox without Microsoft review, approval, and fee. It doesn't matter that it's a physical copy or not. You, an independent developer, can't just create an Xbox game and get it running without MS approval, no matter whether you wanted to sell it on the app store or as a physical copy.
    - pkaye 6y ago
      How does this compare to Google? You can develop your own app and side load it. And you can have third part app stores.
      - akersten 6y ago
        Yep, I'd say Google's closer to doing the right thing here comparatively, having at least a non-terrible path to running unsigned APKs. I would put Apple, Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo in the same bucket of "makes hardware that can run software, but only software they approve." Whether this is something we as a society should allow, I won't comment on, but I will say that Epic should either have a grievance with all of them or none of them. Microsoft and Epic are strange bedfellows and I can't see this headline as anything other than a nervous preemption on Microsoft's part.
        fomine3 6y ago
        I against to put smartphone platform and game console in the same bucket on antitrust perspective because there's only two viable players in smartphone platform market (on gaming, 3 major platforms + open PC platform + smartphone platforms) and it's mandatory device for modern life.
Rebelgecko 6y ago
I don't see why video game consoles are any less general purpose computers than phones. Its easier to install Fedora on a PS3 than an iPhone
vernie 6y ago
The PS4, PS5, Xbox One and Xbox One Series X all run more or less the same type of AMD CPU & GPU. They all have HDMI And USB type A ports. They're much closer to a desktop PC than any smartphone.
Jtsummers 6y ago
I think a case could be made for it, yes. The original Xbox was, in fact, a general purpose computer in disguise (barely, lots of people took advantage of that capability). There have been Linux versions released for PlayStation. It's not like 80s and 90s consoles which were much more limited and more clearly streamlined to just play games (limited or no internal memory, limited input device support, though some of them supported keyboards and could even be hooked up to modems). The lock down on gaming consoles today is mostly artificial.
rpdillon 6y ago
100% agree. Game consoles are entertainment, but our lives are run through our smartphone. It tracks our location, is required by many employers so you can run job-related apps, supports multiple financial activities like banking, investing, and payments, and acts as the primary 2FA device for many folks. Comparing the capabilities of the hardware is beside the point: it's about the scope of the intended/expected usage.
- threeseed 6y ago
  Most of these apply to anything with a browser. So if PS5 ships with a browser again does it magically shift to being a computer ?
  - rpdillon 6y ago
    They're all computers. The point is that folks expect to use their smartphones for a vast array of tasks, and they are _expected_ to use their smartphones for these tasks (by family, employers, friends, merchants, etc.) This is a social problem much more than a technical one, as I see it.
  - romanoderoma 6y ago
    Do you bring your PS5 with you in your pocket?
    - threeseed 6y ago
      My computer doesn't fit in my pocket. So by your definition it isn't a computer then ?
      - romanoderoma 6y ago
        It doesn't fit the definition of personal device Without my phone I could not use my bank's or GitHub's account A locked console is not much of a problem like a locked smartphone Even a locked computer is less problematic Apple sold 2.2 billion iPhones in ~10 years Sony only sold 440 million consoles in ~30 years
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
DivisionSol 6y ago
Yes. Game consoles are just as much “general purpose computers” as phones are. Volume and ubiquity doesn’t change that (modern) game consoles have the architecture required to run anything you want, even easier than needing to compile for Arm through Xcode. One could argue that any console pre-CD days were specialized computing devices that required additional circuitry to run (cartridges.) But in my mind, any console that downloads contents of a storage medium to RAM and executes it is general purpose. You could make Spreadsheets for the Xbox or PlayStation or Switch, if you so chose.
- WWLink 6y ago
  The funny thing is, up until around the time of the PS2, you could still buy unlicensed console games. For example: https://tcrf.net/Category:Unlicensed_Genesis_games https://tcrf.net/Category:Unlicensed_Genesis_games https://nintendo.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_unlicensed_games https://nintendo.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_unlicensed_games In a way, I really do think the term "general purpose computer" should denote a standard for hardware that anyone can write software for. Both Microsoft and Apple are rather notorious for trying to kill this. https://www.pcworld.com/article/248342/windows_8_secure_boot_the_controversy_continues.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/248342/windows_8_secure_boot... The question of "where to draw the line" is an interesting one. People don't complain about it with consoles because you can just buy the game disks anywhere (including some list of retailers, and used from ebay/craigslist/wherever). Even though making a game for a console requires licensing and specific developer tools that - like iOS, access can be granted and revoked. With iOS, Apple sells the idea that the iPad is a computer pretty hard. Yet it's not. It's an Apple Terminal. Just like the iPhone is.
makomk 6y ago
The current generation of video games consoles are all x86-based systems with Radeon graphics, USB, Bluetooth, HDMI out, etc - they're basically full-on desktop class PCs with a few minor changes and a lot of lockdown. One of the big console hacking groups even managed to get the Linux versions of Steam and Portal 2 running on the PS4, with some slight hacks to the graphics drivers to deal with the slightly modified GPU.
- romanoderoma 6y ago
  That proves that consoles are more open than iPhones where no other OS than iOS can run

firemanx 6y ago

This was mentioned in one of the other threads about this - but you can purchase XBox games outside the Microsoft Store platform just fine - Best Buy, Amazon, Walmart, even resell on eBay, and Microsoft doesn't take a cut. Apple does not allow for this model.

hobofan 6y ago
I may be misinformed, but I'm pretty sure that Microsoft also takes a cut from physically distributed XBox games. EDIT: Apparently during the Xbox 360 days, that was ~20%. Couldn't find any newer numbers.
- spicybright 6y ago
  Yes, I'm equally mis-informed, but allowing companies to make games for your console requires some payment to the creator of the console to allow that. It's how consoles are sold at a loss, but make it up through game sales.
- pbalau 6y ago
  For the first transaction MS most likely gets a cut, but after that you can resell xbox games (at least the ones sold on physical media). You can't resell ios apps.
  - alextheparrot 6y ago
    While true, this seems completely orthogonal to the financial relationship between the developer and platform owner
- gamblor956 6y ago
  You're misinformed. Microsoft receives a fee from developers that participate in their licensing program, which is generally a royalty on each sale ranging from 1% to 30% depending on the negotiating leverage of the publisher. Developers are not required to participate in that program to sell games/software for the xBox, and some don't, but MS doesn't guarantee that any unlicensed software will work with the current version of the system or any (software) updates to the system. The same is true of Sony as well.

wayneftw 6y ago

You think game consoles are nearly as important to society as smart phones are, or as ubiquitous?

jtsiskin 6y ago
No. But having the same software distribution monopoly on their device which Epic is challenging seems hypocritical to me.
- romanoderoma 6y ago
  True, in fact is is quite different Epic doesn't make Epic HW that only runs Epic software or the software you can buy on Epic store, chosen by Epic that also takes 30% on any sell

izacus 6y ago

First of all, I can buy Xbox games in many stores - GameStop, MediaMarkt, etc. etc. iOS devices (especially iPads) are marketed as general purpose computers and as such should be compared with Windows and Linux where software authors can: - Distribute their app without approval of the platform owner. - Can freely communicate about pricing and availability of their software. Apple forbids even talking about lower prices or other platforms, essentially forcing us developers to mislead and misinform customers of their platforms. It's deeply against the principles of a free market competition.

robertlagrant 6y ago
Sigh. Various comments already pointing out console vendors also take a cut from physical game sales. I don't know where the "especially iPads" comes from - they are the only ones that could come even close to not being called a watch or a phone. What else apart from iPads are you talking about?
- chongli 6y ago
  They only take a cut from original sales, not the used game market. You can't resell your iOS apps because they're tied to your account.
  - basch 6y ago
    How many unsigned, unlicensed, un-xbox branded printed discs end up at game markets? I'm not sure ive ever seen an "xbox-compatible" disc at a store. Microsoft is still largely controlling distribution.
  - Jtsummers 6y ago
    You can't resell them because you're purchasing a digitally licensed product. You have the same issue with most digital content. You can't resell your Amazon Kindle, Amazon Music, or Amazon Video purchases. You can't resell anything bought from Steam. You can't resell anything bought in the Windows app store. You can't resell anything bought through Google Play. You can't resell digitally purchased Switch games. You can't resell anything bought through, I'd wager, the majority of current digital market places. Nothing about this situation is unique to Apple.

thekyle 6y ago

I think it comes down to the way they're marketed towards consumers. Video game consoles are marketed as appliances that do only one thing (play video games). Apple markets iDevices as "your next computer".

partiallypro 6y ago

Phones aren't really a "luxury" anymore, they are a necessity to life. A gaming console is not. Apple also sells their products at a HUGE profit margin of 30%+ where Microsoft/Sony often sell their gaming hardware at a loss and make it up in software fees.

threeseed 6y ago
> Phones aren't really a "luxury" anymore, they are a necessity to life Tell that to the billions of people without one. And interestingly with us in Australia being under a mandatory COVID-19 stay at home order I have not used my phone in over a week. I can do everything it does on my laptop just fine e.g. messaging, banking etc. Food, shelter etc are necessities. Phone is just a nice to have.
- romanoderoma 6y ago
  Can you really iMessage with your non Apple pc? Or develop iOS apps with it? Or test them? For many people being able to do it makes the difference between a salary and not being able to pay the rent As much as "a nice have" it looks, and I agree it somewhat is, that's not the full story.
  - threeseed 6y ago
    Yes I can develop and test iOS apps on my Mac without a phone. And there are online services that provide real-world phones if you do need to test it. Or I can just use Testflight and have beta test users do it.
    - romanoderoma 6y ago
      Yes, but I wrote > with your __non__ Apple pc?
    - romanoderoma 6y ago
      Ti be clear the point was: if my Android phone breaks or is stolen and I am on the other side of the World I can enter any store buy a 50$ replacement, put the SIM in, sync my contacts and call back home With Apple phones that's not possible If you develop Apple apps you need Apple HW, another hidden tax to be paid to be part of the ecosystem I think a company shouldn't be allowed to sell billions of devices that people rely on for daily activities, but that owners cannot control Even if life can go on without smartphones Life can also go on without refrigerators or washing machines, but if you buy one vendors don't lock customers in

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

romanoderoma 6y ago

But you can still use developer tools on Windows