7 ms·

As someone who has just started a 4 week break spurred on by a burnout-induced breakdown at work, this is very timely. I do wonder if it’s reasonable to think t

As someone who has just started a 4 week break spurred on by a burnout-induced breakdown at work, this is very timely. I do wonder if it’s reasonable to think that 4 weeks is enough. I’ve struggled with mental health issues for most of my life due to complex developmental trauma during childhood, and in 2020, I’ve found that it’s very difficult to tell the difference between work burnout, residual issues due to my trauma history, impact of world events, etc. One thing I do know for sure: research like this is so encouraging. Normalizing the conversation about mental health is so important.

pmiller2 6y ago
Hey, I've gone through a very similar situation recently, and my history is similar to what you describe here, as well. My email is in my profile, and I'd love to chat with you about it -- just put something in the subject to identify that you're haswell@HN.
- haswell 6y ago
  Thank you for the reply and offer to chat! I'm also very interested in chatting about this and I sent an email.
malux85 6y ago
I have had burnout in the past, and I’m sorry to say 4 weeks is likely not enough. For me it was about 1 year to recover. Sure I could have returned to work after a month or two, because I would no longer have been “exhausted” physically, but going straight back into it would have burnt off that top layer of rest, and still revealed the ruined core within, to truly heal it took a year, then my excitement for programming came back, the excitement about not being able to sleep because there’s so much to enjoy, and the pure joy of creation I hate that it took a year to come back, being hyper industrious this long period killed me. But I am grateful that it came back. I appreciate not everyone has the financial ability to take a year off. I didn’t either, but I was lucky that I could adapt a simple, frugal existence to survive. I support UBI or whatever form of support anyone can give people who burnout because it’s real and it’s painful. I wish you all the best in your recovery, and wrote this to tell you there is light at the end of the tunnel
- rhombocombus 6y ago
  I took 6 months off after a bad case of burnout and I think you are spot on at 1 year. About 6 months after going back to work (and clearing my plate of a lot of superfluous BS) I finally felt like I was beginning to hit my stride again. It was a big financial hit, but in the grand scheme of things it would have been far worse on my long term career prospects had I not taken that time away. Six months was, in my opinion, the bare minimum for the kind of burnout I was experiencing.
- numpad0 6y ago
  Just a showerthought, could it be like everyone accumulate mental “age” at a constant rate from birth, such that people of same generation has roughly same mental age, and so burnout state is observed when those ages become mismatched?
- lioeters 6y ago
  I've also burnt out, a couple times really deeply, in the last decade or so. Everything broke down then, and I ended up taking about a year off, with occasional part-time work to sustain me. Emotional and psychological trauma have a way of affecting you "forever", skewing who you are inside. I believe it's a life-long practice to learn your own physical and mental limits, to develop a habit of continuous improvement and awareness. Fortunately, after I came back to the workforce, I eventually found a situation where I can pace myself, take a step or two back as needed, to keep an eye on my mental condition and ensure a smooth, consistent productivity. Your mention of UBI was surprising in the context of burnout, but it totally makes sense. Not everyone can afford to take time off work, especially for mental health, which is not widely understood, as a "taboo" subject in some cultures. I barely made it financially through my burn-out recovery, and it would have saved a ton of grief if there was a safety net that ensured at least food and shelter, while I focused on rehabilitation.
vadansky 6y ago
One thing that bothers me, is that research (as skeptical as I am of social sciences right now) seems to suggest that "ego resources" don't exist. However burn out does exist. Therefore it's hard to reconcile and find a balance between "I can push myself a little more, I'm just unmotivated" and "I need to switch off right now or I'll burn out"
- jonnymiller 6y ago
  There is a delicate balance between what the author of Reboot Jerry Colonna describes as 'Foolish Grit' vs. 'Healthy Drive + Ambition'. In my own experience I find it helpful to enquire into the underlying motivations for the work. i.e am I driving myself from a place of fear? How does my body feel when I begin working on this? What is the source of the resistance? Whilst fear can certainly be a powerful motivator in the short term, it is not a sustainable fuel source.
jonnymiller 6y ago
Jonny (one of the report co-authors) here, thanks for sharing this—I entirely agree that normalising this conversation around mental health is essential, yet often requires courage to do so, especially in a work context. Yet, as our research illustrated, you are very much not alone in experiencing pre-existing mental health challenges that were amplified by the events of 2020. re: 'telling the difference between work burnout vs. residual issues from a traumatic history', this is a nuanced topic but from the perspective of your nervous system, there really isn't a difference—the emotional debt (which could also be labelled as 'micro-trauma') that accumulates doesn't neatly distinguish between work + life as we have a tendency to do (the RED framework in the report was our attempt to describe this process in more detail). Taking an initial 4-week break is really important step—I would encourage you not to commit (at this point) with a date for when you will return but see how the coming weeks unfold. It's also critical to seek help during the recovery process, ideally from someone trained in a form of therapy that addresses the body (Somatic Experiencing Therapy being a good example). Did you notice the [Resilience Wiki](http://resilient.wiki/ http://resilient.wiki/) that we've started towards the end of the report? Hopefully some of those resources are useful. Also, please feel free to get in touch directly: jonnymiller[at]mac.com
- haswell 6y ago
  Thank you so much for the thoughtful reply. I had not noticed the Resilience Wiki. This looks excellent, and I will be exploring it thoroughly. > I entirely agree that normalising this conversation around mental health is essential, yet often requires courage to do so, especially in a work context Broaching this topic and some of the reasons behind the extended break were terrifying in the work context. I've grown into a leadership role after many successful years with the company, and the thought of "admitting" to my mental health issues was daunting at first. Like it would somehow undo my years of professional progress. I'm grateful that my upper leadership was actually quite receptive, and others have shared that they feel more empowered to address their own issues when they see other people willing to share more about their own struggles. But even with that, there's still incredible pressure to rise above it and lead the product. I've been working with a trauma-aware therapist for a few years now (amazingly helpful), and they provided input as I planned the 4 week break. I do plan to explore some of these topics more explicitly in upcoming sessions.
comprev 6y ago
I know a handful of people who needed time off to recover from burnout - it ranged between 8 weeks to 2 years - depending on if they could convince their Doctor to officially recognise it for government support.
- treeman79 6y ago
  This is key. I was all but completely blind, in bed 18 hours a day in extreme pain, recovering from stokes and various clots. Doctor absolutely would not feel out any paperwork. Claimed that was for specialist. Specialist all claim that was a job for primary. Disability straight up laughed at me. Eventful worked through the worst of it, but wow, it’s shocking how bad doctors can be.
  - comprev 6y ago
    I hope you've recovered to full strength. Burnout (and mental health in general) is not talked about nearly enough.
afpx 6y ago
For me (who succumbed to some alcohol and amphetamine abuse to keep working), it took 3 years, and I still get anxiety when I code. But, I also have a history of trauma, so YMMV.
zackmorris 6y ago
Ya I had burnout so bad 2 years ago that it cost me my job. Your comment about burnout spanning multiple causes and contexts resonates with me. I reached a point where everything felt like work (even recreation), and the news on my social media feed in these times just dragged me down further. Just to warn you, 4 weeks will probably not be enough time to climb out of burnout (it took me more like 6 months), but you can certainly hone your coping skills enough to have a healthy strategy in place going forward. Here's what worked for me: * Finding and treating health problems you might not have known about (ADHD, sleep apnea, IBS, hypothyroidism from low iodine, low serotonin due to age or not eating enough meat/tryptophan) * Using positive self-talk (see cognitive behavioral therapy or CBT) * Separating planning from execution (keeping temporary todo lists and using https://www.depression-chat-rooms.org https://www.depression-chat-rooms.org for tasking sessions with others) * Eliminating technical debt outside of work (picking the low-hanging fruit of cleaning up your surroundings, your finances and your relationships) My working theory right now for how burnout works is that it's about a rift between your subconscious and conscious mind. In my case, I had come to rely upon my subconscious to do most of the heavy lifting. So I'd think about a problem and sleep on it, then write the code that came to me in the morning. I took being a lazy programmer to the absolute limit and avoided consciously working through the crux of problems. Basically I mistook going with the flow for being in the zone. My struggles started when my ADHD issues (which I thought I kicked as a teen) crept up and when I lost interest in my work, my subconscious mind refused to solve problems it wasn't passionate about. I found that tasks that previously happened through muscle memory had to be done by my conscious mind. So I started noticing every single little step. Not just brushing my teeth, but opening the drawer, getting out the toothbrush, opening the toothpaste, squeezing it out, and so on. Working through a day in my home life became almost insurmountable as I was faced with 10,000 grueling steps. Anyway, that was the year before COVID-19. I survived on my savings and by donating plasma. Luckily I met someone who hired me to do handyman work, and the physical labor was a godsend since I haven't been able to go to the gym. My health began recovering around Thanksgiving of last year, and I would say I was 85% recovered by around May. The last few months have been great, and I've been able to start programming again in recent weeks. Thankfully the brain circuits that had shut down have reawakened so I don't have to relearn how to code. My mood has risen from a 2-4 out of 10 last year, to a consistent 7-9 the last few months, without medication. When I start slipping down the road towards negative self-talk and darkness, I take time to breathe, slow down, and ask if I'm respecting myself in the situation. I've learned that a big part of my burnout was bad communication and spending too much time dwelling on other people's expectations and my own past mistakes. Hope this helps someone.
x87678r 6y ago
If you are recovering from burnout wtf are you reading HN? Take a break already.
- AlexCoventry 6y ago
  Reading HN is fun and interesting.
  - haswell 6y ago
    Fun, interesting, and in this case, very timely. Taking this break isn't just about not doing anything, but is also about actively seeking new ways to handle my current situation. Had I not been on HN, I wouldn't have found this treasure trove of a document :)
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
whirlaway 6y ago
I wish I could get four weeks off. I'm in a company that switched over to "unlimited vacation" which in practice means no vacation, and also working most weekends and some holidays. Been thinking about leaving, but I can't. I have to pay medical bills for the family. But I'm not qualified for my current job -- I can't be a full time programmer and a part time manager too. All of the lying about progress I can't make is killing me. I've asked to change to a different job, but the CEO told me that I would not be considered for another job in front of the head of HR. By definition, I guess I'm stuck in a dead-end job. I know I'm in burnout, burnoutindex.org gives me 5.6 out of 6. But there's nothing I can do to improve the situation.

pmiller2 6y ago

Hey, I've gone through a very similar situation recently, and my history is similar to what you describe here, as well. My email is in my profile, and I'd love to chat with you about it -- just put something in the subject to identify that you're haswell@HN.

haswell 6y ago
Thank you for the reply and offer to chat! I'm also very interested in chatting about this and I sent an email.

malux85 6y ago

I have had burnout in the past, and I’m sorry to say 4 weeks is likely not enough. For me it was about 1 year to recover. Sure I could have returned to work after a month or two, because I would no longer have been “exhausted” physically, but going straight back into it would have burnt off that top layer of rest, and still revealed the ruined core within, to truly heal it took a year, then my excitement for programming came back, the excitement about not being able to sleep because there’s so much to enjoy, and the pure joy of creation I hate that it took a year to come back, being hyper industrious this long period killed me. But I am grateful that it came back. I appreciate not everyone has the financial ability to take a year off. I didn’t either, but I was lucky that I could adapt a simple, frugal existence to survive. I support UBI or whatever form of support anyone can give people who burnout because it’s real and it’s painful. I wish you all the best in your recovery, and wrote this to tell you there is light at the end of the tunnel

rhombocombus 6y ago
I took 6 months off after a bad case of burnout and I think you are spot on at 1 year. About 6 months after going back to work (and clearing my plate of a lot of superfluous BS) I finally felt like I was beginning to hit my stride again. It was a big financial hit, but in the grand scheme of things it would have been far worse on my long term career prospects had I not taken that time away. Six months was, in my opinion, the bare minimum for the kind of burnout I was experiencing.
numpad0 6y ago
Just a showerthought, could it be like everyone accumulate mental “age” at a constant rate from birth, such that people of same generation has roughly same mental age, and so burnout state is observed when those ages become mismatched?
lioeters 6y ago
I've also burnt out, a couple times really deeply, in the last decade or so. Everything broke down then, and I ended up taking about a year off, with occasional part-time work to sustain me. Emotional and psychological trauma have a way of affecting you "forever", skewing who you are inside. I believe it's a life-long practice to learn your own physical and mental limits, to develop a habit of continuous improvement and awareness. Fortunately, after I came back to the workforce, I eventually found a situation where I can pace myself, take a step or two back as needed, to keep an eye on my mental condition and ensure a smooth, consistent productivity. Your mention of UBI was surprising in the context of burnout, but it totally makes sense. Not everyone can afford to take time off work, especially for mental health, which is not widely understood, as a "taboo" subject in some cultures. I barely made it financially through my burn-out recovery, and it would have saved a ton of grief if there was a safety net that ensured at least food and shelter, while I focused on rehabilitation.

vadansky 6y ago

One thing that bothers me, is that research (as skeptical as I am of social sciences right now) seems to suggest that "ego resources" don't exist. However burn out does exist. Therefore it's hard to reconcile and find a balance between "I can push myself a little more, I'm just unmotivated" and "I need to switch off right now or I'll burn out"

jonnymiller 6y ago
There is a delicate balance between what the author of Reboot Jerry Colonna describes as 'Foolish Grit' vs. 'Healthy Drive + Ambition'. In my own experience I find it helpful to enquire into the underlying motivations for the work. i.e am I driving myself from a place of fear? How does my body feel when I begin working on this? What is the source of the resistance? Whilst fear can certainly be a powerful motivator in the short term, it is not a sustainable fuel source.

jonnymiller 6y ago

Jonny (one of the report co-authors) here, thanks for sharing this—I entirely agree that normalising this conversation around mental health is essential, yet often requires courage to do so, especially in a work context. Yet, as our research illustrated, you are very much not alone in experiencing pre-existing mental health challenges that were amplified by the events of 2020. re: 'telling the difference between work burnout vs. residual issues from a traumatic history', this is a nuanced topic but from the perspective of your nervous system, there really isn't a difference—the emotional debt (which could also be labelled as 'micro-trauma') that accumulates doesn't neatly distinguish between work + life as we have a tendency to do (the RED framework in the report was our attempt to describe this process in more detail). Taking an initial 4-week break is really important step—I would encourage you not to commit (at this point) with a date for when you will return but see how the coming weeks unfold. It's also critical to seek help during the recovery process, ideally from someone trained in a form of therapy that addresses the body (Somatic Experiencing Therapy being a good example). Did you notice the [Resilience Wiki](http://resilient.wiki/ http://resilient.wiki/) that we've started towards the end of the report? Hopefully some of those resources are useful. Also, please feel free to get in touch directly: jonnymiller[at]mac.com

haswell 6y ago
Thank you so much for the thoughtful reply. I had not noticed the Resilience Wiki. This looks excellent, and I will be exploring it thoroughly. > I entirely agree that normalising this conversation around mental health is essential, yet often requires courage to do so, especially in a work context Broaching this topic and some of the reasons behind the extended break were terrifying in the work context. I've grown into a leadership role after many successful years with the company, and the thought of "admitting" to my mental health issues was daunting at first. Like it would somehow undo my years of professional progress. I'm grateful that my upper leadership was actually quite receptive, and others have shared that they feel more empowered to address their own issues when they see other people willing to share more about their own struggles. But even with that, there's still incredible pressure to rise above it and lead the product. I've been working with a trauma-aware therapist for a few years now (amazingly helpful), and they provided input as I planned the 4 week break. I do plan to explore some of these topics more explicitly in upcoming sessions.

comprev 6y ago

I know a handful of people who needed time off to recover from burnout - it ranged between 8 weeks to 2 years - depending on if they could convince their Doctor to officially recognise it for government support.

treeman79 6y ago
This is key. I was all but completely blind, in bed 18 hours a day in extreme pain, recovering from stokes and various clots. Doctor absolutely would not feel out any paperwork. Claimed that was for specialist. Specialist all claim that was a job for primary. Disability straight up laughed at me. Eventful worked through the worst of it, but wow, it’s shocking how bad doctors can be.
- comprev 6y ago
  I hope you've recovered to full strength. Burnout (and mental health in general) is not talked about nearly enough.

afpx 6y ago

For me (who succumbed to some alcohol and amphetamine abuse to keep working), it took 3 years, and I still get anxiety when I code. But, I also have a history of trauma, so YMMV.

zackmorris 6y ago

Ya I had burnout so bad 2 years ago that it cost me my job. Your comment about burnout spanning multiple causes and contexts resonates with me. I reached a point where everything felt like work (even recreation), and the news on my social media feed in these times just dragged me down further. Just to warn you, 4 weeks will probably not be enough time to climb out of burnout (it took me more like 6 months), but you can certainly hone your coping skills enough to have a healthy strategy in place going forward. Here's what worked for me: * Finding and treating health problems you might not have known about (ADHD, sleep apnea, IBS, hypothyroidism from low iodine, low serotonin due to age or not eating enough meat/tryptophan) * Using positive self-talk (see cognitive behavioral therapy or CBT) * Separating planning from execution (keeping temporary todo lists and using https://www.depression-chat-rooms.org https://www.depression-chat-rooms.org for tasking sessions with others) * Eliminating technical debt outside of work (picking the low-hanging fruit of cleaning up your surroundings, your finances and your relationships) My working theory right now for how burnout works is that it's about a rift between your subconscious and conscious mind. In my case, I had come to rely upon my subconscious to do most of the heavy lifting. So I'd think about a problem and sleep on it, then write the code that came to me in the morning. I took being a lazy programmer to the absolute limit and avoided consciously working through the crux of problems. Basically I mistook going with the flow for being in the zone. My struggles started when my ADHD issues (which I thought I kicked as a teen) crept up and when I lost interest in my work, my subconscious mind refused to solve problems it wasn't passionate about. I found that tasks that previously happened through muscle memory had to be done by my conscious mind. So I started noticing every single little step. Not just brushing my teeth, but opening the drawer, getting out the toothbrush, opening the toothpaste, squeezing it out, and so on. Working through a day in my home life became almost insurmountable as I was faced with 10,000 grueling steps. Anyway, that was the year before COVID-19. I survived on my savings and by donating plasma. Luckily I met someone who hired me to do handyman work, and the physical labor was a godsend since I haven't been able to go to the gym. My health began recovering around Thanksgiving of last year, and I would say I was 85% recovered by around May. The last few months have been great, and I've been able to start programming again in recent weeks. Thankfully the brain circuits that had shut down have reawakened so I don't have to relearn how to code. My mood has risen from a 2-4 out of 10 last year, to a consistent 7-9 the last few months, without medication. When I start slipping down the road towards negative self-talk and darkness, I take time to breathe, slow down, and ask if I'm respecting myself in the situation. I've learned that a big part of my burnout was bad communication and spending too much time dwelling on other people's expectations and my own past mistakes. Hope this helps someone.

x87678r 6y ago

If you are recovering from burnout wtf are you reading HN? Take a break already.

AlexCoventry 6y ago
Reading HN is fun and interesting.
- haswell 6y ago
  Fun, interesting, and in this case, very timely. Taking this break isn't just about not doing anything, but is also about actively seeking new ways to handle my current situation. Had I not been on HN, I wouldn't have found this treasure trove of a document :)

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

whirlaway 6y ago

I wish I could get four weeks off. I'm in a company that switched over to "unlimited vacation" which in practice means no vacation, and also working most weekends and some holidays. Been thinking about leaving, but I can't. I have to pay medical bills for the family. But I'm not qualified for my current job -- I can't be a full time programmer and a part time manager too. All of the lying about progress I can't make is killing me. I've asked to change to a different job, but the CEO told me that I would not be considered for another job in front of the head of HR. By definition, I guess I'm stuck in a dead-end job. I know I'm in burnout, burnoutindex.org gives me 5.6 out of 6. But there's nothing I can do to improve the situation.