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AAA here. Actually, it is a stretch, because you’re expecting an entirely different discipline of software development to reflect the trends, knowledge, and ass

by xex70 6y ago

AAA here. Actually, it is a stretch, because you’re expecting an entirely different discipline of software development to reflect the trends, knowledge, and assumptions of your discipline. We are a CryEngine shop but I’ve used Unity extensively for MVP pitches, spec work, and side projects. I also left the Web vertical to do this so I still have context from your side as well. I took the time to read what you’ve written. Just about every single point you made in that essay can be distilled to “Web developer with strong convictions about Web software engineering and expecting game development to look like familiar territory,” with only a couple exceptions. I read that essay and I walk away with “that person is going to have a hard time if they pursue professional game development,” not the intended conclusion you had about Unity’s lackings. That’s reflected in nearly every concern about Unity expressed in this thread because this is a Web forum. Unity has deficiencies we are all aware of in the industry, but none of them are in your essay. Several of your points are misunderstandings, several are just wrong, and all of them paint a picture which also gives a lot of AAA shops pause about hiring Web folks (and that I’ve had to deal with): there’s a pretty strong strain among the Web industry of “if you don’t do software like FAANG does, you’re doing it wrong and your stuff is terrible.” Meanwhile, the stuff you call bad/terrible/worse is generating billions in revenue and employing thousands. Seriously, Unreal is worse than Unity? Nearly stopped reading there. I’m reminded of a friend who does control development for factories and had someone come in straight from a Google internship who started trying to reimplement SCADA from first principles using Kubernetes. The Web is one way to do software engineering. There are others, and one of those others is reflected in the design of Unity.

johnfn 6y ago
I'll happily hear examples of things which are "misunderstandings" or "just wrong". As your post stands, it's nothing more than a long extended ad-hominem - it roughly boils down to "your post is wrong, but I'm not going to tell you why." I accept that Unity and Unreal Engine are doing fine financially and will probably continue to do so for a long time. That's no reason that they can also have issues.
- xex70 6y ago
  Quote one sentence where I attacked you personally. I was quite careful to speak about your essay and its conclusions from the perspective of the intended audience, and if you think I’m going to engage after having that called an ad hominem, you don’t really understand the investment of time that would entail and why I’m strongly disincentivized.
  - johnfn 6y ago
    A few quotes that I found particularly rough include: > Several of your points are misunderstandings, several are just wrong Like I said, I'd be happy to hear ways that I can improve. You saying that I am wrong but not providing specifics makes me feel bad without a way to improve my thinking. > “that person is going to have a hard time if they pursue professional game development,” You're passing judgement on my professional abilities, which makes me feel pretty bad. It's also an ad hominem: you've stopped attacking my argument and you've started attacking my professional character. > “if you don’t do software like FAANG does, you’re doing it wrong and your stuff is terrible.” Is it really necessary to include the thing about FAANG? I'm not even employed by FAANG. To me it feels like you're casting me out to be a FAANG elitist, which feels pretty alienating. It's also an ad hominem: you've stopped attacking my argument and you've started attacking me as a FAANG employee. > all of them paint a picture which also gives a lot of AAA shops pause about hiring Web folks Is the absolute "all of them" really necessary? That you dismissed every one of my points is pretty rough. Can you imagine if you wrote a 4000 word post and someone said "yeah I read it and every point you made gives me pause." and that's all they said, no further explanation? You'd probably be pretty frustrated, wondering what could possibly be wrong, but having no clue with which to even start understanding their different perspective. > I’m reminded of a friend who does control development for factories and had someone come in straight from a Google internship who started trying to reimplement SCADA from first principles using Kubernetes. You're comparing me to a friend that overengineers things. If you have specific things you think I'm overengineering, I'm happy to hear them, but a comparison like this without any concrete steps makes me feel bad without providing me a way to improve.
    - 6y ago
tikhonj 6y ago
Game programming isn't—or at least shouldn't be—so different from other fields that fundamental software engineering principles do not apply. It seems like discarding criticism just because it comes from outside the immediate industry is going to lead to an insular culture and get in the way of any real change or progress. Doubly so for an industry that still has high-profile, highly funded projects (Battlefield V, Anthem... etc) flounder because of technical debt and poor tooling. (And yes, these issues are all downstream of awful management for those particular projects, but that doesn't change the technical side of things!)
- tikhonj 6y ago
  This goes in the other direction too: other fields can and should borrow ideas from game programming. At the end of the day the goals of different software projects are pretty comparable: we all want to produce quality code, minimize bugs and do it as quickly and productively as we can. The details and trade-offs aren't identical, to be sure, but at the end of the day different programming fields are far more alike than not.
- stevofolife 6y ago
  Your first paragraph is like saying ship building, plane building or car building isn't or shouldn't be so different from one another. Wait what?
- JamesSwift 6y ago
  Sure theres similarities, but game programming is usually at the bleeding edge of computing compared to most other areas. Its like saying engineering a space craft isn't/shouldn't be different than engineering a car. Sure, there's overlap, but the fundamental requirements differ so much that a lot of it is _not_ applicable. I'm not a game developer, but I like to keep an eye on how its done specifically because it is fundamentally different from how I typically do things in SAAS / mobile app land. Its a good way to get a broader view on development, and I learn new things _constantly_ by looking at game development.

by xex70 6y ago

johnfn 6y ago

I'll happily hear examples of things which are "misunderstandings" or "just wrong". As your post stands, it's nothing more than a long extended ad-hominem - it roughly boils down to "your post is wrong, but I'm not going to tell you why." I accept that Unity and Unreal Engine are doing fine financially and will probably continue to do so for a long time. That's no reason that they can also have issues.

xex70 6y ago
Quote one sentence where I attacked you personally. I was quite careful to speak about your essay and its conclusions from the perspective of the intended audience, and if you think I’m going to engage after having that called an ad hominem, you don’t really understand the investment of time that would entail and why I’m strongly disincentivized.
- johnfn 6y ago
  A few quotes that I found particularly rough include: > Several of your points are misunderstandings, several are just wrong Like I said, I'd be happy to hear ways that I can improve. You saying that I am wrong but not providing specifics makes me feel bad without a way to improve my thinking. > “that person is going to have a hard time if they pursue professional game development,” You're passing judgement on my professional abilities, which makes me feel pretty bad. It's also an ad hominem: you've stopped attacking my argument and you've started attacking my professional character. > “if you don’t do software like FAANG does, you’re doing it wrong and your stuff is terrible.” Is it really necessary to include the thing about FAANG? I'm not even employed by FAANG. To me it feels like you're casting me out to be a FAANG elitist, which feels pretty alienating. It's also an ad hominem: you've stopped attacking my argument and you've started attacking me as a FAANG employee. > all of them paint a picture which also gives a lot of AAA shops pause about hiring Web folks Is the absolute "all of them" really necessary? That you dismissed every one of my points is pretty rough. Can you imagine if you wrote a 4000 word post and someone said "yeah I read it and every point you made gives me pause." and that's all they said, no further explanation? You'd probably be pretty frustrated, wondering what could possibly be wrong, but having no clue with which to even start understanding their different perspective. > I’m reminded of a friend who does control development for factories and had someone come in straight from a Google internship who started trying to reimplement SCADA from first principles using Kubernetes. You're comparing me to a friend that overengineers things. If you have specific things you think I'm overengineering, I'm happy to hear them, but a comparison like this without any concrete steps makes me feel bad without providing me a way to improve.
  - 6y ago

tikhonj 6y ago

Game programming isn't—or at least shouldn't be—so different from other fields that fundamental software engineering principles do not apply. It seems like discarding criticism just because it comes from outside the immediate industry is going to lead to an insular culture and get in the way of any real change or progress. Doubly so for an industry that still has high-profile, highly funded projects (Battlefield V, Anthem... etc) flounder because of technical debt and poor tooling. (And yes, these issues are all downstream of awful management for those particular projects, but that doesn't change the technical side of things!)

tikhonj 6y ago
This goes in the other direction too: other fields can and should borrow ideas from game programming. At the end of the day the goals of different software projects are pretty comparable: we all want to produce quality code, minimize bugs and do it as quickly and productively as we can. The details and trade-offs aren't identical, to be sure, but at the end of the day different programming fields are far more alike than not.
stevofolife 6y ago
Your first paragraph is like saying ship building, plane building or car building isn't or shouldn't be so different from one another. Wait what?
JamesSwift 6y ago
Sure theres similarities, but game programming is usually at the bleeding edge of computing compared to most other areas. Its like saying engineering a space craft isn't/shouldn't be different than engineering a car. Sure, there's overlap, but the fundamental requirements differ so much that a lot of it is _not_ applicable. I'm not a game developer, but I like to keep an eye on how its done specifically because it is fundamentally different from how I typically do things in SAAS / mobile app land. Its a good way to get a broader view on development, and I learn new things _constantly_ by looking at game development.