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> I had a realization while going through the process that this is the thing that causes our cities to be so drastically inferior to european cities which were
by ashtonkem 6y ago
> I had a realization while going through the process that this is the thing that causes our cities to be so drastically inferior to european cities which were designed before zoning laws were in vogue.
Zoning laws are in fact an American invention, and they were originally designed to limit where Chinese immigrants could live and work[0]. Their actual impact on the quality of a city was kind of besides the point; the only goal was to hurt racial out groups. Viewed from this lens, it isn't terribly surprising that zoning laws haven't done a great job at making American cities good places to work & live; that's not what those tools were designed for.
0 - https://fee.org/articles/the-racist-history-of-zoning-laws/ https://fee.org/articles/the-racist-history-of-zoning-laws/
- nickff 6y agoI loathe zoning laws, but they were not "originally designed to limit where Chinese immigrants could live and work"; that was one application, but not the whole story. Zoning was more about protecting rich neighborhoods full of mansions from a 'blight' of apartment buildings.[1] Single-family house zoning is what differentiates North America from other regions. [1] https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7591/j.ctt1287cxr https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7591/j.ctt1287cxr
- zymhan 6y ago"Protecting propety values" has been code for "keep out undesirable minorities" for a very long time, in the US.
- nickff 6y agoI didn't say "protecting propety [sic] values", I said "protecting rich neighborhoods". If you'd like more details, I'd recommend reading the book, it is very detailed and well-written.
- TeaDrunk 6y agoOnly white people have had rich neighborhoods to protect. (When other races have such neighborhoods, they're burned to the ground.)
- nickff 6y agoI think you're engaging in rhetoric here, and it's not very convincing (to me).
- R0b0t1 6y agoRhetoric is typically effective, eloquent reasoning and speech.
- LarryDarrell 6y agoOr they were razed 'legally' for an eight lane freeway.
- ashtonkem 6y agoOr to create Central Park, which was previously a black neighborhood in NYC.
- selectodude 6y agoCentral Park was mostly a loose collection of shantytowns full of Irish people. There were evictions but it was not a large group of people, or anything resembling a neighborhood.
- jessaustin 6y agoI don't know the exact history, but this reads as something that can't possibly be true. Had the "Irish shantytowns" successfully excluded other minorities? If so, how? Is there any "shantytown" anywhere on earth that isn't populated much more densely than 1850s Manhattan? What makes a "shantytown" not resemble a neighborhood? Not enough picket fences?
- libraryatnight 6y agoOk, protecting rich neighborhoods still sounds like keeping out undesirables. https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/01/us/white-liberals-hypocrisy-race-blake/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/01/us/white-liberals-hypocrisy-r...
- whatshisface 6y agoPoor white people are the difference between "protecting rich neighborhoods" and "protecting racial homogeneity." I don't know of any time that poor white people have ever been included in the rich people enclaves, which takes some of the air out of the race-and-race-alone perspective.
- ashtonkem 6y agoI mean, there were literally neighborhoods that were legally marked as “whites only”. That seems like a pretty important detail. You need to also include racist bank and financial policies in order to get the whole picture. While poor whites are indeed excluded from rich neighborhoods, they’re also been the recipients of federal welfare designed to make them rich enough for “respectable” neighborhoods; blacks have not received the same treatment. See: racial disparities in how GI bill worked. https://www.history.com/news/gi-bill-black-wwii-veterans-benefits https://www.history.com/news/gi-bill-black-wwii-veterans-ben...
- jokethrowaway 6y agoSegregation was outlawed in the 60s. Black Americans were on an upward trajectory until the 60s despite living in a society with systemic racism. That was until the government decided to pay cash to destroy family structure. Welfare actually could have played a different role you from what you may imagine: https://ifstudies.org/blog/family-breakdown-and-americas-welfare-system#welfare-may-have-played-a-role https://ifstudies.org/blog/family-breakdown-and-americas-wel...
- libraryatnight 6y agoI'm not arguing race alone, but the comment seemed completely dismissive to the notion that keeping out the poor also usually means keeping out minorities. So yes, there's poor white people. https://medium.com/equality-includes-you/explaining-white-privilege-to-a-broke-white-person-2239d9d2470b https://medium.com/equality-includes-you/explaining-white-pr...
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- bernawil 6y agoWell, it's code for "keep density low" and "keep traffic out of my property while I go generate traffic on other people's property". The results are the same though.
- jbay808 6y agoProperty values often increase from increasing density (ie, replacing my five-million-dollar mansion with a twenty-million-dollar apartment building on the same lot). The zoning doesn't necessarily protect property values as such, so it's an important distinction.
- boomboomsubban 6y agoI couldn't read much at the link, so looked up about the book. Found this line in a review fairly relevant. >Hirt deliberately spends little time on racism, partly because it's too easy a target and too obvious. https://www.planetizen.com/node/74628/book-review-zoned-usa https://www.planetizen.com/node/74628/book-review-zoned-usa
- nickff 6y agoZoning has been applied against Chinese immigrants, as well as other minorities, but it was also used in many relatively racially homogeneous areas. Again, I strongly disapprove of zoning (and many other city planning activities), but I don't think racism was really 'responsible' for zoning, and I don't think that calling all bad policies 'racist' is a good idea.
- boomboomsubban 6y agoThe start of many US zoning laws was based on racism though. No one is saying every zoning law was racist, or that racism is the sole reason they are bad, but their origin is undoubtedly tied to racism.
- nickff 6y agoLike many policies, their origins are complicated, and subject to 'bootlegger and baptist' type motivations.[1] Going back to my first post in this thread, I was saying that zoning laws were not "originally designed to limit where Chinese immigrants could live and work", and I stand by my comment. As a bit of an aside, I find it disturbing how political debate is becoming pure sophistry, where winning the day is dependent on proving that the other side is racist. Zoning is bad, whether or not it's racist. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootleggers_and_Baptists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootleggers_and_Baptists
- boomboomsubban 6y ago>As a bit of an aside, I find it disturbing how political debate is becoming pure sophistry, where winning the day is dependent on proving that the other side is racist. Zoning is bad, whether or not it's racist Such an odd reply to my comment of >No one is saying every zoning law was racist, or that racism is the sole reason they are bad
- rayiner 6y ago> they were not "originally designed to limit where Chinese immigrants could live and work" Right, its was also Black people: https://www.asu.edu/courses/aph294/total-readings/silver%20--%20racialoriginsofzoning.pdf https://www.asu.edu/courses/aph294/total-readings/silver%20-...
- jancsika 6y agoWhat's the relevance of what you cite to OP having trouble clearing a commercial venture to apparently serve food, beverages, and test out vehicles with combustible engines?