4 ms·

It is precisely the sanctity of marriage in those cultural expectations that pushes you to keep making something. I a marriage is irrevocable, you better do you

It is precisely the sanctity of marriage in those cultural expectations that pushes you to keep making something. I a marriage is irrevocable, you better do your best to "make" it good. In a culture of disposable marriage, there is little reason to invest deeply in building, since the whole thing can be torn down in a second.

treeman79 6y ago
Ignoring beliefs for the moment. Personally I’m of the opinion that historically marriage is Disease control. Imagine life with no medication or testing. Keeping marriage “pure” is a way to keep people healthy. Any society that didn’t follow this would have a lot of STDs. The stricter a society the healthier the people. Hence why so much social pressure developed. Lots of Jewish practices have to do with health and sanitation. Long list of things that makes a person “unclean” for X days. I see many Parallels with Covid. It is creating new traditions that could last generations. Someone coughs, they are “unclean” for 14 days. Social rules are completely different now. Modern medication changes the game drastically. Lots of things are no longer a death sentence.
- gruez 6y ago
  >Long list of things that makes a person “unclean” for X days. Is there further reading for this?
  - Ancapistani 6y ago
    Off the top of my head, Numbers 19 applies for caring for the dead: https://biblehub.com/niv/numbers/19.htm https://biblehub.com/niv/numbers/19.htm Menstruation is in Leviticus 15: https://biblehub.com/niv/leviticus/15.htm https://biblehub.com/niv/leviticus/15.htm ... in fact, most of Leviticus is about "clean" vs. "unclean".
  - smegger001 6y ago
    the book of Leviticus? Its the 3rd book of the Torah/Old Testament of the Bible. A lot of it is there and would be where I would start.
  - names_are_hard 6y ago
    Very detailed rules are laid out for quarantining lepers, menstruating women, men who experienced nocturnal emissions, etc. Start with Leviticus 13, it's not hard reading (depending on how archaic the translation is). Not exactly about a number of days, but Deuteronomy 23:12 instructs those going to battle to carry a shovel so they could bury their excrement and not leave it exposed in the camp, lest God abandon the camp and not defend them from their enemies. (After all, God is holy and poop is not). I highly recommend reading the original literature and not a secondary source. The way the text weaves reasonable ideas with superstition, threats of abandonment and punishment with messages of hope is a fascinating window into the way people thought in another time and place.
    - treeman79 6y ago
      I recall a lot of mentions of cleansing rituals. Including a way to make an antibacterial soap. Been awhile, so I may have some details wrong. Becoming sick was near equivalent to being a sinner, so good hygiene and righteousness had some overlap. Follow these rules, you won’t get sick. Got sick? You didn’t follow the rules. Harsh reality, but a harsh time.
- Ancapistani 6y ago
  > Ignoring beliefs for the moment. Same. > Personally I’m of the opinion that historically marriage is Disease control. While I don't disagree that this is a benefit, marriage isn't necessary for this to occur - only fidelity. Plural marriage would work just fine in this context, as would polygamy/polygyny. Marriage is, at its root, a means of ensuring the generational transfer of wealth: it means that the person who possesses capital in the society (typically the man) can pass their wealth on to their children. It also provides some assurances to the legally subordinate partner that they will not be destitute should the other die or abandon them.
- chrisco255 6y ago
  I don't think it's about disease control at all. I don't believe AIDS was around back in biblical times and the other STDs had to rank near the bottom of concerns 5000 years ago. Besides, many other cultures practiced marriage. In my mind marriage developed as an adaptation to large civilizations. Whereas we once lived in roaming nomadic tribes, and fluid small groups (as can be observed in some remote tribes today), I think once agriculture flourished and towns started to outgrow the individual it became necessary for something like the nuclear family to develop. With families belonging to clans and clans belonging to city-states. You're making a lot of assumptions about Covid and long term effects. The Spanish flu was many times deadlier and yet it did not change anything once it faded out several years later, things went back to normal.
- EliRivers 6y ago
  Also inheritance rights (and to a degree ownership of and responsibility for children) in cultures where property ownership is for men [0]. In the absence of a way to know for sure who your children are, your children are deemed to be those your wife gives birth to in the course of your marriage. A child you may have outside of marriage, no matter how obvious it is that it's yours, is illegitimate; not legally considered. Suddenly, adultery on the part of your wife is a very big deal indeed, and all the various other effects this has. Obviously things have changed in many societies now, but historically this was a very big one. Surprisingly recent, perhaps. See Trimble vs Gordon, of 1977. [0] And others too, but very strongly pronounced in these cultures.
scarface74 6y ago
Or just the opposite. You can take advantage of the situation knowing they won’t leave.

treeman79 6y ago

Ignoring beliefs for the moment. Personally I’m of the opinion that historically marriage is Disease control. Imagine life with no medication or testing. Keeping marriage “pure” is a way to keep people healthy. Any society that didn’t follow this would have a lot of STDs. The stricter a society the healthier the people. Hence why so much social pressure developed. Lots of Jewish practices have to do with health and sanitation. Long list of things that makes a person “unclean” for X days. I see many Parallels with Covid. It is creating new traditions that could last generations. Someone coughs, they are “unclean” for 14 days. Social rules are completely different now. Modern medication changes the game drastically. Lots of things are no longer a death sentence.

gruez 6y ago
>Long list of things that makes a person “unclean” for X days. Is there further reading for this?
- Ancapistani 6y ago
  Off the top of my head, Numbers 19 applies for caring for the dead: https://biblehub.com/niv/numbers/19.htm https://biblehub.com/niv/numbers/19.htm Menstruation is in Leviticus 15: https://biblehub.com/niv/leviticus/15.htm https://biblehub.com/niv/leviticus/15.htm ... in fact, most of Leviticus is about "clean" vs. "unclean".
- smegger001 6y ago
  the book of Leviticus? Its the 3rd book of the Torah/Old Testament of the Bible. A lot of it is there and would be where I would start.
- names_are_hard 6y ago
  Very detailed rules are laid out for quarantining lepers, menstruating women, men who experienced nocturnal emissions, etc. Start with Leviticus 13, it's not hard reading (depending on how archaic the translation is). Not exactly about a number of days, but Deuteronomy 23:12 instructs those going to battle to carry a shovel so they could bury their excrement and not leave it exposed in the camp, lest God abandon the camp and not defend them from their enemies. (After all, God is holy and poop is not). I highly recommend reading the original literature and not a secondary source. The way the text weaves reasonable ideas with superstition, threats of abandonment and punishment with messages of hope is a fascinating window into the way people thought in another time and place.
  - treeman79 6y ago
    I recall a lot of mentions of cleansing rituals. Including a way to make an antibacterial soap. Been awhile, so I may have some details wrong. Becoming sick was near equivalent to being a sinner, so good hygiene and righteousness had some overlap. Follow these rules, you won’t get sick. Got sick? You didn’t follow the rules. Harsh reality, but a harsh time.
Ancapistani 6y ago
> Ignoring beliefs for the moment. Same. > Personally I’m of the opinion that historically marriage is Disease control. While I don't disagree that this is a benefit, marriage isn't necessary for this to occur - only fidelity. Plural marriage would work just fine in this context, as would polygamy/polygyny. Marriage is, at its root, a means of ensuring the generational transfer of wealth: it means that the person who possesses capital in the society (typically the man) can pass their wealth on to their children. It also provides some assurances to the legally subordinate partner that they will not be destitute should the other die or abandon them.
chrisco255 6y ago
I don't think it's about disease control at all. I don't believe AIDS was around back in biblical times and the other STDs had to rank near the bottom of concerns 5000 years ago. Besides, many other cultures practiced marriage. In my mind marriage developed as an adaptation to large civilizations. Whereas we once lived in roaming nomadic tribes, and fluid small groups (as can be observed in some remote tribes today), I think once agriculture flourished and towns started to outgrow the individual it became necessary for something like the nuclear family to develop. With families belonging to clans and clans belonging to city-states. You're making a lot of assumptions about Covid and long term effects. The Spanish flu was many times deadlier and yet it did not change anything once it faded out several years later, things went back to normal.
EliRivers 6y ago
Also inheritance rights (and to a degree ownership of and responsibility for children) in cultures where property ownership is for men [0]. In the absence of a way to know for sure who your children are, your children are deemed to be those your wife gives birth to in the course of your marriage. A child you may have outside of marriage, no matter how obvious it is that it's yours, is illegitimate; not legally considered. Suddenly, adultery on the part of your wife is a very big deal indeed, and all the various other effects this has. Obviously things have changed in many societies now, but historically this was a very big one. Surprisingly recent, perhaps. See Trimble vs Gordon, of 1977. [0] And others too, but very strongly pronounced in these cultures.

scarface74 6y ago

Or just the opposite. You can take advantage of the situation knowing they won’t leave.