5 ms·

> I spend most of my free time consuming literature, films and music. Trying to assimilate as much of the canon as I can is what makes me feel alive and in touc

by kypro 6y ago

> I spend most of my free time consuming literature, films and music. Trying to assimilate as much of the canon as I can is what makes me feel alive and in touch with the beauty of the world. Consequently, if a person doesn't share my tastes, then that means that they don’t share my life, and that seems like a bad foundation for any relationship. I do miss companionship, but I would rather refrain from entering into a marriage than into a marriage that would be an exercise in mutual frustration or force me to give up that which gives my life meaning and purpose. Perhaps I'm unique in this sense, but for me pursuing my own self-satisfaction has never left me feeling that happy or fulfilled. In fact, I suspect it's what fueled my depression throughout most of my twenties. I always thought if I had enough money, or if I started a successful enough business maybe I'd be happy. But every time I achieved a goal I always felt more empty and confused. I might feel happiness for a little while, but then I needed something else and so the struggle started again. Something I slowly started to realise in my late twenties was that these goals of mine gave me some surface level meaning, but the deepest meaning came from doing things for others, especially those I love. I think this is what a lot of people misunderstand about children and relationships today. It's very hard to find deeper meaning from an enjoyment of literature or music. I'm not saying these thing can't bring enjoyment or enrich your life, but they don't typically give someone a reason to wake up in the morning either. Today people too often think that partying, casual sex or other selfish pursuits will make them happy, but I suspect it has the exact opposite effect. Finding someone who isn't perfect but who you can love and dedicate yourself to, or having children and giving everything you can for them, these are things that can bring us true meaning.

teekert 6y ago
I agree, in short I think there is a very important and underestimated difference between joy and happiness, fun and satisfaction. I think indeed they are even at odds with each other. It comes back in many aspects of life, i.e., the entertainment industry, the smartphone industry (maybe any industry?) aims to bring you fun, a short-lived positive emotion. What brings you happiness (a long lived positive feeling of satisfaction and peacefulness of mind) is perhaps difficult to discover and deeply personal.
nlosti 6y ago
That really resonates. I'm where you were ~10 years ago. But another perspective is that, i try to become successful or develop hobbies to make other people proud of me. I get up in the morning to surprise people or see them respect me. Similar goal to what you've described, but with a slightly different emotion. Yes art and sport and computers make me happy but I can also share them with other people and make them happy.
throw51319 6y ago
Yeah but that doesn't mean rush to have kids right...? Because then the best path would be to have kids at like 25, which prob isn't the best way to happiness.
- names_are_hard 6y ago
  I suspect that the best way to happiness is not to seek it. All the people I know that married young and had kids at 20 years old didn't do it because they thought it would make them happy, they did it because they don't use "happiness" as the north star that guides their decisions. They are from a different culture and religion and have a different value system, one that doesn't consider an action's impact on their happiness to be a winning argument for or against. Are they happy? I don't know, and it doesn't really matter because it isn't really the goal, but if I had to guess I'd say they're happier than I am. I don't think I'm the first to realize that happiness visits those who stop looking for it. The challenge is that you have to really stop looking, not pretend to ignore it while you constantly peek over your shoulder to see if it isn't just about to finally show up.
  - throw51319 6y ago
    Yeah, you're right. I guess there is a fine line between "just do it" and "measure twice, cut once". Of course you can just put your head down and follow the traditional path, and end up fine - with kids, house, etc. But was that the path best for you? Was it the most fulfilling path? Shouldn't overthink that, but also should spend some effort to think about it.
- apetresc 6y ago
  Uh, yes? 25 is certainly not ahead of schedule for having kids. By 30 there start to be physical risks.
  - throw51319 6y ago
    Not for a guy. Plus you can marry girls like 3-7 years younger.
- 6y ago
mikem170 6y ago
> Finding someone who isn't perfect but who you can love and dedicate yourself to, or having children and giving everything you can for them, these are things that can bring us true meaning. That certainly seems to be conventional wisdom. I wonder how often it's true? (edit: 40% divorce rate, etc.) Maybe some people find, or struggle with, meaning more than others? Maybe there's multiple meaningful paths through life?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
csomar 6y ago
> Today people too often think that partying, casual sex or other selfish pursuits will make them happy, but I suspect it has the exact opposite effect. Finding someone who isn't perfect but who you can love and dedicate yourself to, or having children and giving everything you can for them, these are things that can bring us true meaning. That's just some gibberish that married people say; or people who were looking for reasons to live and are later trapped in a marriage trying to explain their existence. I picked the former and I have a reason to wake up every morning: Doing the former.
closeparen 6y ago
A word of caution: this belief may be true, but it’s radioactive. Potential partners can smell it from a mile away. They may not be consciously aware of it, but they’ll smell it. The personality component of attractiveness for men has a lot to do with already feeling fulfilled in your solo activities. No one wants to feel like you are looking to make them a load-bearing structure in your psyche. Some are okay with being used for sex under the right circumstances, but vanishingly few will consent to be used for meaning. At least, I think this is why I’m single.
- leetcrew 6y ago
  > No one wants to feel like you are looking to make them a load-bearing structure in your psyche. I think you are correct, but I don't think this is exactly what kypro is getting at. expecting to gain fulfillment by investing effort in a relationship is not a turn-off to most people. expecting fulfillment from a relationship while putting forth minimal effort is indeed toxic and will repel people. > Potential partners can smell it from a mile away. They may not be consciously aware of it, but they’ll smell it. The personality component of attractiveness for men has a lot to do with already feeling fulfilled in your solo activities. I would generalize this further. people can sense when another person is significantly needier than they are (having or not having fulfilling solo activities is a subset of this). outside of very specific (eg, parent-child) types of relationships, people hate this. > At least, I think this is why I’m single. without knowing much about you, I would guess that you're single for the same reason as most single people who want a relationship: mismatched expectations and/or not meeting and talking to enough new people. timing is very important, and the timing will be wrong for most people you meet.
  - closeparen 6y ago
    It seems to me that neediness is exactly the belief that other people are essential to your life satisfaction and fulfillment. What do you think it means?
    - sersi 6y ago
      Not the OP but I think neediness is more than that. It's a mismatch between how much you someone need other people for their life satisfaction and fulfillment and how much that same person is willing to invest in the relationship. So not all people who believe that other people are essential to their life satisfaction and fulfillment are necessarily needy, the ones who are are those who do not give back...
goatlover 6y ago
Not everyone is the same, so I doubt being married and having children is what brings true meaning to everyone. Maybe a majority of people feel that way, at least at some point in their lives? But I'd caution against generalizing to everyone. People do have different motivations in life.

by kypro 6y ago

teekert 6y ago

I agree, in short I think there is a very important and underestimated difference between joy and happiness, fun and satisfaction. I think indeed they are even at odds with each other. It comes back in many aspects of life, i.e., the entertainment industry, the smartphone industry (maybe any industry?) aims to bring you fun, a short-lived positive emotion. What brings you happiness (a long lived positive feeling of satisfaction and peacefulness of mind) is perhaps difficult to discover and deeply personal.

nlosti 6y ago

That really resonates. I'm where you were ~10 years ago. But another perspective is that, i try to become successful or develop hobbies to make other people proud of me. I get up in the morning to surprise people or see them respect me. Similar goal to what you've described, but with a slightly different emotion. Yes art and sport and computers make me happy but I can also share them with other people and make them happy.

throw51319 6y ago

Yeah but that doesn't mean rush to have kids right...? Because then the best path would be to have kids at like 25, which prob isn't the best way to happiness.

names_are_hard 6y ago
I suspect that the best way to happiness is not to seek it. All the people I know that married young and had kids at 20 years old didn't do it because they thought it would make them happy, they did it because they don't use "happiness" as the north star that guides their decisions. They are from a different culture and religion and have a different value system, one that doesn't consider an action's impact on their happiness to be a winning argument for or against. Are they happy? I don't know, and it doesn't really matter because it isn't really the goal, but if I had to guess I'd say they're happier than I am. I don't think I'm the first to realize that happiness visits those who stop looking for it. The challenge is that you have to really stop looking, not pretend to ignore it while you constantly peek over your shoulder to see if it isn't just about to finally show up.
- throw51319 6y ago
  Yeah, you're right. I guess there is a fine line between "just do it" and "measure twice, cut once". Of course you can just put your head down and follow the traditional path, and end up fine - with kids, house, etc. But was that the path best for you? Was it the most fulfilling path? Shouldn't overthink that, but also should spend some effort to think about it.
apetresc 6y ago
Uh, yes? 25 is certainly not ahead of schedule for having kids. By 30 there start to be physical risks.
- throw51319 6y ago
  Not for a guy. Plus you can marry girls like 3-7 years younger.
6y ago

mikem170 6y ago

> Finding someone who isn't perfect but who you can love and dedicate yourself to, or having children and giving everything you can for them, these are things that can bring us true meaning. That certainly seems to be conventional wisdom. I wonder how often it's true? (edit: 40% divorce rate, etc.) Maybe some people find, or struggle with, meaning more than others? Maybe there's multiple meaningful paths through life?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

csomar 6y ago

> Today people too often think that partying, casual sex or other selfish pursuits will make them happy, but I suspect it has the exact opposite effect. Finding someone who isn't perfect but who you can love and dedicate yourself to, or having children and giving everything you can for them, these are things that can bring us true meaning. That's just some gibberish that married people say; or people who were looking for reasons to live and are later trapped in a marriage trying to explain their existence. I picked the former and I have a reason to wake up every morning: Doing the former.

closeparen 6y ago

A word of caution: this belief may be true, but it’s radioactive. Potential partners can smell it from a mile away. They may not be consciously aware of it, but they’ll smell it. The personality component of attractiveness for men has a lot to do with already feeling fulfilled in your solo activities. No one wants to feel like you are looking to make them a load-bearing structure in your psyche. Some are okay with being used for sex under the right circumstances, but vanishingly few will consent to be used for meaning. At least, I think this is why I’m single.

leetcrew 6y ago
> No one wants to feel like you are looking to make them a load-bearing structure in your psyche. I think you are correct, but I don't think this is exactly what kypro is getting at. expecting to gain fulfillment by investing effort in a relationship is not a turn-off to most people. expecting fulfillment from a relationship while putting forth minimal effort is indeed toxic and will repel people. > Potential partners can smell it from a mile away. They may not be consciously aware of it, but they’ll smell it. The personality component of attractiveness for men has a lot to do with already feeling fulfilled in your solo activities. I would generalize this further. people can sense when another person is significantly needier than they are (having or not having fulfilling solo activities is a subset of this). outside of very specific (eg, parent-child) types of relationships, people hate this. > At least, I think this is why I’m single. without knowing much about you, I would guess that you're single for the same reason as most single people who want a relationship: mismatched expectations and/or not meeting and talking to enough new people. timing is very important, and the timing will be wrong for most people you meet.
- closeparen 6y ago
  It seems to me that neediness is exactly the belief that other people are essential to your life satisfaction and fulfillment. What do you think it means?
  - sersi 6y ago
    Not the OP but I think neediness is more than that. It's a mismatch between how much you someone need other people for their life satisfaction and fulfillment and how much that same person is willing to invest in the relationship. So not all people who believe that other people are essential to their life satisfaction and fulfillment are necessarily needy, the ones who are are those who do not give back...

goatlover 6y ago

Not everyone is the same, so I doubt being married and having children is what brings true meaning to everyone. Maybe a majority of people feel that way, at least at some point in their lives? But I'd caution against generalizing to everyone. People do have different motivations in life.