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Reading all of the cynicism on the comments I wonder if we are taking into account the business context for the development of the app. I’m not a fan of react e

by _benj 6y ago

Reading all of the cynicism on the comments I wonder if we are taking into account the business context for the development of the app. I’m not a fan of react even though I use it daily, but the licentious nature of react allows me to build/modify features pretty quickly, albeit, low quality. I’m as idealist as the next person about a good architecture, but if the code you are writing is for a new product that is still trying to find a market-fit spending a lot of time in the architecture of something that could drastically change doesn’t make much sense to me. All that I’m saying is that, as opposed to some other opinionated frameworks, react let’s you do pretty much whatever you want, which is great for speed development but can also exhausting in the huge amount of decisions that need to be made.

leeoniya 6y ago
> but if the code you are writing is for a new product that is still trying to find a market-fit spending a lot of time in the architecture of something that could drastically change doesn’t make much sense to me. "Nothing is more permanent than a temporary solution"
- mumblemumble 6y ago
  It's true. But, after having witnessed, and having committed, countless acts of perfecting something until it died on the vine, I would consider, "This hack is hard to change because so very many people are paying us money in return for the privilege of relying on it," to be a very nice problem to have.
  - leeoniya 6y ago
    the pendulum can swing too far in either direction. but pumping out features with no regard for how they will be maintained is a recipe for lower velocity and less stability in the future.
    - _benj 6y ago
      true, but for me writing highly architected features that take 3x or more time to write just to steer away because of business needs (i.e. doesn't sell) seems to me more painful.
    - mumblemumble 6y ago
      > pumping out features with no regard for how they will be maintained That doesn't seem to be the position that's being advanced here. TFA, for example, starts out talking all about the author fell in love with React for its easy maintainability, before moving on to the need to make some tweaks for the sake of user experience, and finally ending by proposing a design that is based on a fairly principled set of design tradeoffs. And the parent commenter, at least to my reading, isn't saying, "phooey, who cares about maintainability," they're saying that, while they don't like React, they do have to acknowledge that there is pragmatic value in it not being so rigid that you can't just grind out the code when business realities mean that that's what you need to do. Long story short, if what you're trying to advocate is a flexible, middle-path-type approach, I don't know that this is the best place to go searching for a debate on the subject.
nthj 6y ago
If you’re going for speed of development, it’s hard to beat server side rendering in Rails. The creator built Rails for speed of development and happy engineers. It’s also very opinionated (convention over configuration) which helps me just build out features rapidly without making thousands of pointless decisions. I am not opposed to React for like, a calendar application, or a particularly complex part of a web app, but most web apps have 90% CRUD and 10% shiny. And with well-tuned SQL and turbolinks dropped on, Rails pages load in 30-60ms with no page refresh.
- _benj 6y ago
  I agree with you, even thought I might personally prefer Elixir/Phoenix :-) In my particular case thought I've been opting for Golang given that my web app needs to perform a little more that CRUD. And in regards to the CRUD part I've been heavily relying on PostgreSQL functions, thus instead the pain of a ORM I just have simple raw sql `SELECT * FROM api.get_user_data(?,?);` I'm not saying that is not possible to to things like this on Ruby, but when your application is a little more than CRUD RoR starts getting on my way...
  - nthj 6y ago
    Sounds like you and I have similar approaches, and I just have more CRUD to manage in my case. For e.g. payment processing endpoints, I use Golang. Managing 3rd party SDKs is nicer in Golang, imo. I also heavily rely on Postgres views, which ActiveRecord just sees as read-only tables, so my Rails code can still call `user.api_data_entries` without any ORM wrangling.
    - _benj 6y ago
      nice!
- jack_riminton 6y ago
  The happy engineer concept is a much neglected one imo. Rails devs who’ve mastered a lightweight js framework like Stimulus and perhaps a webhook utility like ActionCable are immensely more productive than a team of very separate front and back end devs. Basecamp take this a level further whereby each dev is quite heavily involved in the design process, and their designers can also code in Rails. With Hey I think they’ve shown that it can not only be lightning fast but pretty shiny!
fogetti 6y ago
The exact thing that makes development fast is not to make decisions. In fact, this is such a fundamental principle that Uncle Bob spells it out this way: "A good architect maximizes the number of decisions not made" and I wholeheartedly agree with that. Also as a sibling comment mentioned it, Rails and similar batteries included frameworks (like Angular for example) are the way to go for rapid prototyping, since they include everything you might ever need.
commandlinefan 6y ago
> react let’s you do pretty much whatever you want Ok, so I haven't gotten around to learning React yet, but I understand it to be the next iteration of what Angular, which I have learned, was trying to be. Angular "let you do whatever you wanted", too, which made me wonder why it was even there in the first place. Javascript lets me do whatever I want, I just have to write a lot of code to do that. In theory, a framework ought to reduce the amount of code I had to write, but I found that I was actually writing more code to work around the 90% of things Angular didn't do than I would if I just used Javascript and DOM manipulation. Frameworks that "let you do whatever you want" usually end up being the thing they're supposed to replace with extra steps.
- IggleSniggle 6y ago
  React is very very little, is not really a framework, l and honestly I think most folks are really either talking about JSX when they talk about React or they are talking Create-React-App and it’s ecosystem (which really is much more like a framework). JSX comes down to being a convenient way to write HTML in your JS instead of JS in your HTML. After that, it’s just vanilla js.

by _benj 6y ago

leeoniya 6y ago

> but if the code you are writing is for a new product that is still trying to find a market-fit spending a lot of time in the architecture of something that could drastically change doesn’t make much sense to me. "Nothing is more permanent than a temporary solution"

mumblemumble 6y ago
It's true. But, after having witnessed, and having committed, countless acts of perfecting something until it died on the vine, I would consider, "This hack is hard to change because so very many people are paying us money in return for the privilege of relying on it," to be a very nice problem to have.
- leeoniya 6y ago
  the pendulum can swing too far in either direction. but pumping out features with no regard for how they will be maintained is a recipe for lower velocity and less stability in the future.
  - _benj 6y ago
    true, but for me writing highly architected features that take 3x or more time to write just to steer away because of business needs (i.e. doesn't sell) seems to me more painful.
  - mumblemumble 6y ago
    > pumping out features with no regard for how they will be maintained That doesn't seem to be the position that's being advanced here. TFA, for example, starts out talking all about the author fell in love with React for its easy maintainability, before moving on to the need to make some tweaks for the sake of user experience, and finally ending by proposing a design that is based on a fairly principled set of design tradeoffs. And the parent commenter, at least to my reading, isn't saying, "phooey, who cares about maintainability," they're saying that, while they don't like React, they do have to acknowledge that there is pragmatic value in it not being so rigid that you can't just grind out the code when business realities mean that that's what you need to do. Long story short, if what you're trying to advocate is a flexible, middle-path-type approach, I don't know that this is the best place to go searching for a debate on the subject.

nthj 6y ago

If you’re going for speed of development, it’s hard to beat server side rendering in Rails. The creator built Rails for speed of development and happy engineers. It’s also very opinionated (convention over configuration) which helps me just build out features rapidly without making thousands of pointless decisions. I am not opposed to React for like, a calendar application, or a particularly complex part of a web app, but most web apps have 90% CRUD and 10% shiny. And with well-tuned SQL and turbolinks dropped on, Rails pages load in 30-60ms with no page refresh.

_benj 6y ago
I agree with you, even thought I might personally prefer Elixir/Phoenix :-) In my particular case thought I've been opting for Golang given that my web app needs to perform a little more that CRUD. And in regards to the CRUD part I've been heavily relying on PostgreSQL functions, thus instead the pain of a ORM I just have simple raw sql `SELECT * FROM api.get_user_data(?,?);` I'm not saying that is not possible to to things like this on Ruby, but when your application is a little more than CRUD RoR starts getting on my way...
- nthj 6y ago
  Sounds like you and I have similar approaches, and I just have more CRUD to manage in my case. For e.g. payment processing endpoints, I use Golang. Managing 3rd party SDKs is nicer in Golang, imo. I also heavily rely on Postgres views, which ActiveRecord just sees as read-only tables, so my Rails code can still call `user.api_data_entries` without any ORM wrangling.
  - _benj 6y ago
    nice!
jack_riminton 6y ago
The happy engineer concept is a much neglected one imo. Rails devs who’ve mastered a lightweight js framework like Stimulus and perhaps a webhook utility like ActionCable are immensely more productive than a team of very separate front and back end devs. Basecamp take this a level further whereby each dev is quite heavily involved in the design process, and their designers can also code in Rails. With Hey I think they’ve shown that it can not only be lightning fast but pretty shiny!

fogetti 6y ago

The exact thing that makes development fast is not to make decisions. In fact, this is such a fundamental principle that Uncle Bob spells it out this way: "A good architect maximizes the number of decisions not made" and I wholeheartedly agree with that. Also as a sibling comment mentioned it, Rails and similar batteries included frameworks (like Angular for example) are the way to go for rapid prototyping, since they include everything you might ever need.

commandlinefan 6y ago

> react let’s you do pretty much whatever you want Ok, so I haven't gotten around to learning React yet, but I understand it to be the next iteration of what Angular, which I have learned, was trying to be. Angular "let you do whatever you wanted", too, which made me wonder why it was even there in the first place. Javascript lets me do whatever I want, I just have to write a lot of code to do that. In theory, a framework ought to reduce the amount of code I had to write, but I found that I was actually writing more code to work around the 90% of things Angular didn't do than I would if I just used Javascript and DOM manipulation. Frameworks that "let you do whatever you want" usually end up being the thing they're supposed to replace with extra steps.

IggleSniggle 6y ago
React is very very little, is not really a framework, l and honestly I think most folks are really either talking about JSX when they talk about React or they are talking Create-React-App and it’s ecosystem (which really is much more like a framework). JSX comes down to being a convenient way to write HTML in your JS instead of JS in your HTML. After that, it’s just vanilla js.