6 ms·

I maintain that I would like to see UBE -- Universal Basic Employment. If you can work, we have a job for you. Part-time, full-time, your choice. We'll even t

by donw 6y ago

I maintain that I would like to see UBE -- Universal Basic Employment. If you can work, we have a job for you. Part-time, full-time, your choice. We'll even train you up. Especially in the US -- there is tons of work to be done on infrastructure, plenty of research to be sponsored with results placed in the public domain, etc. We derive a large chunk of our personal value, out of what we contribute to our tribes -- our community, our friends, our company, etc. If somebody is willing to contribute to society, we should encourage and enable that.

0-_-0 6y ago
This was already done under socialism in the eastern side of Europe after the Second World War. Jobs had to be created that were unnecessary, or a single job was split between 2-3 people. Keyword is "full employment" if you want to google it, for example: https://nintil.com/the-soviet-union-achieving-full-employment/ https://nintil.com/the-soviet-union-achieving-full-employmen... Resulted in overmanning (a sort-of "hidden unemployment") and lead to work shortages for new projects.
- rgblambda 6y ago
  Done in the west as well, in order to counter the popularity of socialism with the working class. Had similar results. Was gradually wound down in the past few decades.
- donw 6y ago
  Looking at history, Socialist economies have a lot of other characteristics, though: - Starting a business is illegal. - You are required to work. Not working is illegal. - Growing and eating your own food is illegal. Illegal meaning you either go to a forced-labor camp, and are later killed after the State has extracted every last ounce of value, or the State executes you outright to send a message. I am not proposing full employment. Consent and choice matter. If you don't want to work, don't work. Or start a business. Or be homeless. Your call. But if you want to work, and can't find a job... let's fix that problem, and in doing so rebuild our infrastructure.
  - prerok 6y ago
    I grew up in socialism and can tell you that things weren't half as bad as you describe them. Sure, everybody had a job (it was the state's responsibility to provide you with one) and people found themselves demotivated because there was little incentive to do a better job. There was a saying "They cannot pay me as little than the little work I can do" (I hope I translated this correctly :) ). But, being killed for not working? Never. Start your own business? Sure, just pay the taxes and observe worker's rights. Growing your own food? Every rural household had a garden and some had decent sized fields. I guess you meant communist Russia at some (signifacant but not large) window of history?
    - donw 6y ago
      > I grew up in socialism Where and when, if I may ask? > I guess you meant communist Russia at some (signifacant but not large) window of history? In terms of "no private businesses" and "from each according to his ability" -- e.g. not working was considered stealing from the state, and thus illegal? Russia from around 1920-1980, East Germany from about 1949-1980... really, you can look at all of the Eastern Bloc: Poland, Romania, etc. China from 1949-1976, North Korea along the same timeframe, Cambodia under Pol Pot... To be fair, the executions ramped down a bit after the first 40 years or so, and you'd just be fined and/or imprisoned.
      - prerok 6y ago
        I grew up in Yugoslavia. Again, not half as bad as your statements suggest. I have never heard people being coerced to work en masse. Everybody had a job and there were plenty who did very little, as I said in my previous post. In some sense, I guess it was considered bad if you lived in the city and didn't work but plenty of people lived in countryside where they just lived off the land. As far as I know, nobody cared if you had a job or not. I am not saying it was good. Free political thought was not allowed, speaking against the regime got you into nasty prisons, where, yes, you were coerced to work like a slave. I knew a few people who went through that and that really was bad :( What I am saying is that most people still led relatively normal lives.
- timonoko 6y ago
  The record was made in Nasser's Egypt however. All government jobs were shared with dozens or even hundreds of people. Some worked only few hours once a month and earned reasonable wages.
- luckylion 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_guarantee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_guarantee is closer to what was mentioned here, I believe. Essentially, it's just saying "we don't want people to sit around and get used to it and we also have things that need to get done but aren't crucial to survival, so we can do them when we have lots of people who aren't needed elsewhere, and we can stop doing them when we don't".
wiether 6y ago
What would be the goal of UBE ? "we have a job for you". Great, but I'm certain that it means most of the people doing those jobs would not like them and would no work great. Because being forced to do something you don't like/don't want to it not a good idea. For the ones being forced and for the ones working with them but liking what they do. What is the point of all those inovations if it's not being able to tell to people : you don't wan't to work ? Great, you don't have to ! Today we have smart people doing jobs that give them enough wealth but they hate their jobs and instead they could be artists doing "nothing" but at they end they could be happy and maybe bring to society with their art. We have no so smart people that do shitty jobs they hate because society needs someone to do it but the salary is shit, and those people are miserable. Instead they could do "nothing" and be happy, while we give real money to people deciding to do shitty jobs, or people creating solutions to avoid other people doing those shitty jobs. Why having as much people as possible being able to do "nothing" isn't the ultimate goal of humanity ? I mean, it's exactly what wealthy people want for themselves so...
- leereeves 6y ago
  It's the nature of our existence that work has to be done. At minimum, we die if we don't gather food and water, find and maintain shelter, and prepare to defend ourselves against a variety of dangers. Social advances and technological progress haven't eliminated that burden, they've increased it. Now we also need to maintain complex infrastructure, educate the young, care for the elderly and disabled, and create entertainment to ease the psychological stress of a life so far removed from our basic instincts. And at this time, very little of that work is done by robots and AI. Asking not to work is just expecting other people to provide all that for you.
  - wiether 6y ago
    Sorry but I don't see how a software engineer (as me) is doing any work that is in the nature of human beings. There is more and more people doing less than needed jobs while there is less and less people doing useful jobs. The Covid crisis showed this to us (at least in Europe) : the people doing the real work are the people with the lowest incone and the lowest social protections. So instead of giving good incomes to guys like me faking being useful to society, I'd prefer we give real incomes to useful people and let other doing "nothing" instead of having jobs with no "natural" purpose. If we were in a society like that, I would have never chose being a software engineer, I'd rather be in the fields, growing food. But I'm a coward so I picked the salary instead of the meaning.
thesz 6y ago
What you are asking was implemented in USSR. And it was great, if you have my opinion.
- drran 6y ago
  Yeah, it was like poison for dragon: cheap, but super effective. Very nice.

by donw 6y ago

0-_-0 6y ago

This was already done under socialism in the eastern side of Europe after the Second World War. Jobs had to be created that were unnecessary, or a single job was split between 2-3 people. Keyword is "full employment" if you want to google it, for example: https://nintil.com/the-soviet-union-achieving-full-employment/ https://nintil.com/the-soviet-union-achieving-full-employmen... Resulted in overmanning (a sort-of "hidden unemployment") and lead to work shortages for new projects.

rgblambda 6y ago
Done in the west as well, in order to counter the popularity of socialism with the working class. Had similar results. Was gradually wound down in the past few decades.
donw 6y ago
Looking at history, Socialist economies have a lot of other characteristics, though: - Starting a business is illegal. - You are required to work. Not working is illegal. - Growing and eating your own food is illegal. Illegal meaning you either go to a forced-labor camp, and are later killed after the State has extracted every last ounce of value, or the State executes you outright to send a message. I am not proposing full employment. Consent and choice matter. If you don't want to work, don't work. Or start a business. Or be homeless. Your call. But if you want to work, and can't find a job... let's fix that problem, and in doing so rebuild our infrastructure.
- prerok 6y ago
  I grew up in socialism and can tell you that things weren't half as bad as you describe them. Sure, everybody had a job (it was the state's responsibility to provide you with one) and people found themselves demotivated because there was little incentive to do a better job. There was a saying "They cannot pay me as little than the little work I can do" (I hope I translated this correctly :) ). But, being killed for not working? Never. Start your own business? Sure, just pay the taxes and observe worker's rights. Growing your own food? Every rural household had a garden and some had decent sized fields. I guess you meant communist Russia at some (signifacant but not large) window of history?
  - donw 6y ago
    > I grew up in socialism Where and when, if I may ask? > I guess you meant communist Russia at some (signifacant but not large) window of history? In terms of "no private businesses" and "from each according to his ability" -- e.g. not working was considered stealing from the state, and thus illegal? Russia from around 1920-1980, East Germany from about 1949-1980... really, you can look at all of the Eastern Bloc: Poland, Romania, etc. China from 1949-1976, North Korea along the same timeframe, Cambodia under Pol Pot... To be fair, the executions ramped down a bit after the first 40 years or so, and you'd just be fined and/or imprisoned.
    - prerok 6y ago
      I grew up in Yugoslavia. Again, not half as bad as your statements suggest. I have never heard people being coerced to work en masse. Everybody had a job and there were plenty who did very little, as I said in my previous post. In some sense, I guess it was considered bad if you lived in the city and didn't work but plenty of people lived in countryside where they just lived off the land. As far as I know, nobody cared if you had a job or not. I am not saying it was good. Free political thought was not allowed, speaking against the regime got you into nasty prisons, where, yes, you were coerced to work like a slave. I knew a few people who went through that and that really was bad :( What I am saying is that most people still led relatively normal lives.
timonoko 6y ago
The record was made in Nasser's Egypt however. All government jobs were shared with dozens or even hundreds of people. Some worked only few hours once a month and earned reasonable wages.
luckylion 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_guarantee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_guarantee is closer to what was mentioned here, I believe. Essentially, it's just saying "we don't want people to sit around and get used to it and we also have things that need to get done but aren't crucial to survival, so we can do them when we have lots of people who aren't needed elsewhere, and we can stop doing them when we don't".

wiether 6y ago

What would be the goal of UBE ? "we have a job for you". Great, but I'm certain that it means most of the people doing those jobs would not like them and would no work great. Because being forced to do something you don't like/don't want to it not a good idea. For the ones being forced and for the ones working with them but liking what they do. What is the point of all those inovations if it's not being able to tell to people : you don't wan't to work ? Great, you don't have to ! Today we have smart people doing jobs that give them enough wealth but they hate their jobs and instead they could be artists doing "nothing" but at they end they could be happy and maybe bring to society with their art. We have no so smart people that do shitty jobs they hate because society needs someone to do it but the salary is shit, and those people are miserable. Instead they could do "nothing" and be happy, while we give real money to people deciding to do shitty jobs, or people creating solutions to avoid other people doing those shitty jobs. Why having as much people as possible being able to do "nothing" isn't the ultimate goal of humanity ? I mean, it's exactly what wealthy people want for themselves so...

leereeves 6y ago
It's the nature of our existence that work has to be done. At minimum, we die if we don't gather food and water, find and maintain shelter, and prepare to defend ourselves against a variety of dangers. Social advances and technological progress haven't eliminated that burden, they've increased it. Now we also need to maintain complex infrastructure, educate the young, care for the elderly and disabled, and create entertainment to ease the psychological stress of a life so far removed from our basic instincts. And at this time, very little of that work is done by robots and AI. Asking not to work is just expecting other people to provide all that for you.
- wiether 6y ago
  Sorry but I don't see how a software engineer (as me) is doing any work that is in the nature of human beings. There is more and more people doing less than needed jobs while there is less and less people doing useful jobs. The Covid crisis showed this to us (at least in Europe) : the people doing the real work are the people with the lowest incone and the lowest social protections. So instead of giving good incomes to guys like me faking being useful to society, I'd prefer we give real incomes to useful people and let other doing "nothing" instead of having jobs with no "natural" purpose. If we were in a society like that, I would have never chose being a software engineer, I'd rather be in the fields, growing food. But I'm a coward so I picked the salary instead of the meaning.

thesz 6y ago

What you are asking was implemented in USSR. And it was great, if you have my opinion.

drran 6y ago
Yeah, it was like poison for dragon: cheap, but super effective. Very nice.