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Yeah we have similar things here in The Netherlands. Vodafone acquired one of the major cable internet providers (Ziggo), and are giving benefits to people who

Yeah we have similar things here in The Netherlands. Vodafone acquired one of the major cable internet providers (Ziggo), and are giving benefits to people who are customers of both; effectively a discount on the bills + a free cable tv package, which includes HBO Go. The good thing is that it’s not expensive (I’d argue that they are giving a deal that’s cheaper than anything else out there), but they do make it nearly impossible for eg ADSL providers to compete. I’m not sure how to feel about this. I consider the root problem the monopoly the cable providers have, as its by far the fastest way to driver internet compared to ADSL. As such, I’ve put my hopes on fiber optical arriving soon, which exposes a much larger market on which multiple providers can compete. Incredibly annoying by the way that HBO Go is not available for Apple TV, so it’s pretty much worthless to me and I just end up torrenting anything of HBO I want to watch. Not sure about the legality about it, but it sure as hell is a better experience.

dtech 6y ago
> I consider the root problem the monopoly the cable providers have, as its by far the fastest way to driver internet compared to ADSL. As such, I’ve put my hopes on fiber optical arriving soon, which exposes a much larger market on which multiple providers can compete. Not that this a grave KPN - the ex-state phone and copper network company - dug entirely for itself. There were a lot of fiber companies and rollouts happening over the last decades, but KPN all bought them out and stopped the rollout, to prevent competition with its aging copper network. So now the result is Ziggo - the merger of all the ex-state cable companies - has a virtual monopoly on fast internet, as xDSL/copper hasn't kept up with DOCSIS/cable by a long shot, and KPN controls all the FtH but has a dismal coverage percentage.
- exar0815 6y ago
  So the situation below the ground is not better than in Germany. We call the former monopolist with the violet T the "World champion in cramming data on a bell wire". Here its also just the choice between rather slow xDSL via ancient Copper, mostly older DOCSIS with abysmal upload speeds by Vodafone (Which bought out all Cable companies and is slowly rolling out D3.1) or some vey specialized construction when you are living in a rural area. For my Parents, I built a 7 GHz Microwave Link to a neighboring Town with goodish network access. Luckily, there is direct LoS and we get 18-25MBit of the 30 through. I am astonished tho, as I always had the impression that your mobile network is pretty good. In fact, as I work about 300m away from the dutch border, we regularly use VodafoneNL as Benchmark Network for our RF Products, as there atleast we get full 4G and not only 3G as on the german Vodafone Network.
  - tremon 6y ago
    Mobile data is not a flat fee per month, they all have data caps above which you either start to pay extra or get a throughput comparable to POTS modem speeds. So it's not a viable replacement for the wired Internet connection everyone has at home.
    - exar0815 6y ago
      The "problem" everywhere is streaming. 4G/5G would be a decent replacement for basically everything else. But streaming breaks every data cap, sadly. Oh, and games. I just read that some modern games have patches(!) of over 100GB. What the hell?
      - virtue3 6y ago
        pings/latency/spikes on 4g/5g are not quite as good as general broadband either. At least that has been my experience in the US.
    - gsich 6y ago
      Some countries have a flat fee, with unlimited volume per month.
  - dtech 6y ago
    On mobile networks the situation is quite good. Vodafone, KPN and T-mobile have 3 separate networks and are heavily competing which each other. Except for the availability of fiber, the broadband situation is fine, especially in cities. You have 40-500 Mbps down from Ziggo, and 40-100 Mbps from KPN. No data limits. Newly built and revitalized neighborhoods usually have FtH. For the the consumer result of the duopoly is ok for consumers for now, but I fear for the effects in 5-15 years. You already see Ziggo growing bolder and more expensive as their lead increases.
fyfy18 6y ago
> I’ve put my hopes on fiber optical arriving soon, which exposes a much larger market on which multiple providers can compete I live in Lithuania which has a pretty good fiber rollout, and has fair rules for consumers on common access to physical infrastructure by different providers. In reality though it means you still only have one choice on who your internet provider is. It's not worth it for multiple providers to wire up an apartment or neighbourhood when there is already an existing provider there.
- blooalien 6y ago
  "It's not worth it for multiple providers to wire up an apartment or neighbourhood when there is already an existing provider there." Except that it is kinda worth it if they'd think for a moment just how many folk would instantly switch to any competition that arrived in an area that's been consistently screwed over by the only provider there… All they'd have to do is offer honest services at a fair price and they'd steal a massive chunk of the area's subscriber base.
  - fyfy18 6y ago
    I think the issue here is there isn't much profit to be made though. This isn't the US where you pay $100/mo for slow DSL with a ridiculous datacap.... I pay €19/mo for FTTH at 1gbit up/down and no data limits. My apartment building has 20 properties, so if a competitor came in offering the same for €15/mo and managed to convert half of the properties that would be... €150/mo revenue. How long would it take to even pay back the GPON hardware they need to install in the building? My provider hasn't attempted to screw us over at all yet (been with them for 4 years), but I am concerned that they are our only choice, so if they wanted to double prices we'd probably pay.
  - michaelt 6y ago
    Imagine the cost of providing fiber is $50/month, and Company A has wired up a town and charges customers $100/month. You're the CEO of Company B, and you have two choices: You can wire up the same town, charge $60/month, Company A will drop their prices to match, and you get to make a profit of $10/month from half the town. Or you can wire up a different town, and charge $100/month - giving you a profit of $50/month from the entire town. Which one would you do first?
Marciplan 6y ago
The rest of your point still stands but, plz, do your research. Vodafone did not acquire Ziggo. VodafoneZiggo is a joint-venture where Liberty Global (owner of Ziggo) and Vodafone Group are both 50% owners.
- dzdt 6y ago
  FYI the downvotes are for the phrasing. If you had written "Small correction:" instead of "plz, do your research" it would have gone the other way.
mosselman 6y ago
I live in the Netherlands as well and I have had diner for many years. Your comment makes it seem as if there is no fiber in the Netherlands yet.
- sandermvanvliet 6y ago
  Living in Rotterdam it does appear that way. Lots of announcements over the years but no actual fiber availability
- dtech 6y ago
  Good for you. If you live in the Randstad or most cities, FtH is nonexistent outside of recently build suburbs [1] [1] https://www.kpnnetwerk.nl/netwerkkaart https://www.kpnnetwerk.nl/netwerkkaart
jrochkind1 6y ago
Where I live, a medium-sized city in the US, there is NO fiber option. One cable broadband provider is the only choice.
spiderfarmer 6y ago
I live in a rural part of Drenthe. One of the most sparsely populated regions of the Netherlands. I have Gigabit internet through a small ISP, over the fiber that is owned by our local coop, for just 50 euro/month.
- radicalbyte 6y ago
  The crazy thing is that the rural areas all seem to have fiber whilst the towns are stuck with Ziggo.
  - stingraycharles 6y ago
    It’s policy, the towns already have Ziggo so they already have fast internet. Rural areas typically don’t have that yet. At least, that’s how I understood it.
- stingraycharles 6y ago
  I think the policy is that they’re first adding fiber to these regions, as people living in larger cities / more populated areas typically already have access to fast cable internet. Or is this something that you guys did totally independently?
  - spiderfarmer 6y ago
    It’s totally independent. The local government is backing the loan though. But they knew they had to after they realized their mistake of giving commercial parties a permit to lay fiber in the village centras, without connecting the outside area. Now thanks to us all houses are connected to fiber, even if they don’t use it. People who do use it pay 11 euro/month to help pay back the loan. There are many more projects like this throughout the country. But this doesn’t work in areas where people are not seeing (or don’t care) how this will benefit their environment. Maybe Covid will help a lot of these projects achieve their threshold.
    - stingraycharles 6y ago
hinkley 6y ago
Wait, HBO Go isn't available on Apple TV? Last I heard they were discontinuing support for older Apple TVs, not all Apple TVs. Are they gone entirely in your region?
sukilot 6y ago
Assuming you haven't rooted your Apple TV, how does piracy help with the lack of an Apple TV app (aside from bypassing paying for the content, which is independent of Apple TV)? To watch on your computer, HBO works fine. To watch on your Apple TV, you have to stream from a computer z whether you use AirPlay (supported) or piracy.

dtech 6y ago

> I consider the root problem the monopoly the cable providers have, as its by far the fastest way to driver internet compared to ADSL. As such, I’ve put my hopes on fiber optical arriving soon, which exposes a much larger market on which multiple providers can compete. Not that this a grave KPN - the ex-state phone and copper network company - dug entirely for itself. There were a lot of fiber companies and rollouts happening over the last decades, but KPN all bought them out and stopped the rollout, to prevent competition with its aging copper network. So now the result is Ziggo - the merger of all the ex-state cable companies - has a virtual monopoly on fast internet, as xDSL/copper hasn't kept up with DOCSIS/cable by a long shot, and KPN controls all the FtH but has a dismal coverage percentage.

exar0815 6y ago
So the situation below the ground is not better than in Germany. We call the former monopolist with the violet T the "World champion in cramming data on a bell wire". Here its also just the choice between rather slow xDSL via ancient Copper, mostly older DOCSIS with abysmal upload speeds by Vodafone (Which bought out all Cable companies and is slowly rolling out D3.1) or some vey specialized construction when you are living in a rural area. For my Parents, I built a 7 GHz Microwave Link to a neighboring Town with goodish network access. Luckily, there is direct LoS and we get 18-25MBit of the 30 through. I am astonished tho, as I always had the impression that your mobile network is pretty good. In fact, as I work about 300m away from the dutch border, we regularly use VodafoneNL as Benchmark Network for our RF Products, as there atleast we get full 4G and not only 3G as on the german Vodafone Network.
- tremon 6y ago
  Mobile data is not a flat fee per month, they all have data caps above which you either start to pay extra or get a throughput comparable to POTS modem speeds. So it's not a viable replacement for the wired Internet connection everyone has at home.
  - exar0815 6y ago
    The "problem" everywhere is streaming. 4G/5G would be a decent replacement for basically everything else. But streaming breaks every data cap, sadly. Oh, and games. I just read that some modern games have patches(!) of over 100GB. What the hell?
    - virtue3 6y ago
      pings/latency/spikes on 4g/5g are not quite as good as general broadband either. At least that has been my experience in the US.
  - gsich 6y ago
    Some countries have a flat fee, with unlimited volume per month.
- dtech 6y ago
  On mobile networks the situation is quite good. Vodafone, KPN and T-mobile have 3 separate networks and are heavily competing which each other. Except for the availability of fiber, the broadband situation is fine, especially in cities. You have 40-500 Mbps down from Ziggo, and 40-100 Mbps from KPN. No data limits. Newly built and revitalized neighborhoods usually have FtH. For the the consumer result of the duopoly is ok for consumers for now, but I fear for the effects in 5-15 years. You already see Ziggo growing bolder and more expensive as their lead increases.

fyfy18 6y ago

> I’ve put my hopes on fiber optical arriving soon, which exposes a much larger market on which multiple providers can compete I live in Lithuania which has a pretty good fiber rollout, and has fair rules for consumers on common access to physical infrastructure by different providers. In reality though it means you still only have one choice on who your internet provider is. It's not worth it for multiple providers to wire up an apartment or neighbourhood when there is already an existing provider there.

blooalien 6y ago
"It's not worth it for multiple providers to wire up an apartment or neighbourhood when there is already an existing provider there." Except that it is kinda worth it if they'd think for a moment just how many folk would instantly switch to any competition that arrived in an area that's been consistently screwed over by the only provider there… All they'd have to do is offer honest services at a fair price and they'd steal a massive chunk of the area's subscriber base.
- fyfy18 6y ago
  I think the issue here is there isn't much profit to be made though. This isn't the US where you pay $100/mo for slow DSL with a ridiculous datacap.... I pay €19/mo for FTTH at 1gbit up/down and no data limits. My apartment building has 20 properties, so if a competitor came in offering the same for €15/mo and managed to convert half of the properties that would be... €150/mo revenue. How long would it take to even pay back the GPON hardware they need to install in the building? My provider hasn't attempted to screw us over at all yet (been with them for 4 years), but I am concerned that they are our only choice, so if they wanted to double prices we'd probably pay.
- michaelt 6y ago
  Imagine the cost of providing fiber is $50/month, and Company A has wired up a town and charges customers $100/month. You're the CEO of Company B, and you have two choices: You can wire up the same town, charge $60/month, Company A will drop their prices to match, and you get to make a profit of $10/month from half the town. Or you can wire up a different town, and charge $100/month - giving you a profit of $50/month from the entire town. Which one would you do first?

Marciplan 6y ago

The rest of your point still stands but, plz, do your research. Vodafone did not acquire Ziggo. VodafoneZiggo is a joint-venture where Liberty Global (owner of Ziggo) and Vodafone Group are both 50% owners.

dzdt 6y ago
FYI the downvotes are for the phrasing. If you had written "Small correction:" instead of "plz, do your research" it would have gone the other way.

mosselman 6y ago

I live in the Netherlands as well and I have had diner for many years. Your comment makes it seem as if there is no fiber in the Netherlands yet.

sandermvanvliet 6y ago
Living in Rotterdam it does appear that way. Lots of announcements over the years but no actual fiber availability
dtech 6y ago
Good for you. If you live in the Randstad or most cities, FtH is nonexistent outside of recently build suburbs [1] [1] https://www.kpnnetwerk.nl/netwerkkaart https://www.kpnnetwerk.nl/netwerkkaart

jrochkind1 6y ago

Where I live, a medium-sized city in the US, there is NO fiber option. One cable broadband provider is the only choice.

spiderfarmer 6y ago

I live in a rural part of Drenthe. One of the most sparsely populated regions of the Netherlands. I have Gigabit internet through a small ISP, over the fiber that is owned by our local coop, for just 50 euro/month.

radicalbyte 6y ago
The crazy thing is that the rural areas all seem to have fiber whilst the towns are stuck with Ziggo.
- stingraycharles 6y ago
  It’s policy, the towns already have Ziggo so they already have fast internet. Rural areas typically don’t have that yet. At least, that’s how I understood it.
stingraycharles 6y ago
I think the policy is that they’re first adding fiber to these regions, as people living in larger cities / more populated areas typically already have access to fast cable internet. Or is this something that you guys did totally independently?
- spiderfarmer 6y ago
  It’s totally independent. The local government is backing the loan though. But they knew they had to after they realized their mistake of giving commercial parties a permit to lay fiber in the village centras, without connecting the outside area. Now thanks to us all houses are connected to fiber, even if they don’t use it. People who do use it pay 11 euro/month to help pay back the loan. There are many more projects like this throughout the country. But this doesn’t work in areas where people are not seeing (or don’t care) how this will benefit their environment. Maybe Covid will help a lot of these projects achieve their threshold.
  - stingraycharles 6y ago

hinkley 6y ago

Wait, HBO Go isn't available on Apple TV? Last I heard they were discontinuing support for older Apple TVs, not all Apple TVs. Are they gone entirely in your region?

sukilot 6y ago

Assuming you haven't rooted your Apple TV, how does piracy help with the lack of an Apple TV app (aside from bypassing paying for the content, which is independent of Apple TV)? To watch on your computer, HBO works fine. To watch on your Apple TV, you have to stream from a computer z whether you use AirPlay (supported) or piracy.