5 ms·

It is true that you'd need to write your app so that you either segregate user's input (the only one reading a document is the original user who created it), or

by mckoss 16y ago

It is true that you'd need to write your app so that you either segregate user's input (the only one reading a document is the original user who created it), or sanitize user-entered data in the client before displaying it. I think this is pretty analogous to the traditional client/server model. The only difference is it all happens in the client. There ARE cases where you need to aggregate data from multiple users, analyze it, and generate a summary, that are not very amenable to the Pageforest model - since there is no "trusted agent" that can execute that code.

ktsmith 16y ago
Thanks for the quick replies. Given the additional information I can better answer your original question in the post of "would I use this." Due to the lack of a trusted agent anywhere in the stack I don't have any use cases that fit your model and so no I couldn't use it. Maybe a single player game or other toy. For the work that I typically do accessibility is also a huge factor and javascript can only be used for progressive enhancement so I couldn't create a 100% client side javascript application anyway.
- mckoss 16y ago
  Thanks so much for the thoughtful feedback. BTW, can you explain why you can't do page rendering in JavaScript for accessibility? Is there reason screen readers can deal with dynamically generated HTML?
  - ktsmith 16y ago
    It's not that page rendering can't be done with JavaScript and still be accessible. My experience with it via testing is that due to the large number of screen readers, and then differences within versions of the even the most common screen readers (JAWS for example) is that you can't really expect a consistent experience for your users where you get much more consistency with vanilla HTML. The single largest complaint we received while testing with screen readers on our latest app was related to how the user was informed by their software about dynamically changed content, something I have no control over. The compromise that we implemented was to try to detect screen readers and offer to disable all JavaScript content since the site was designed to degrade gracefully anyway. This is going to be less of a problem for some companies than others, I just happen to be working on software that's designed to help HR departments with their hiring process and specifically with the accurate completion of certain federal forms. Getting complaints about violating the ADA could lead to lawsuits against my employer or our clients. Similar to the complaints that Google is receiving about accessibility problems in Google Apps and specifically gmail. Here's a pretty good survey that has some more information if you are interested in the topic: http://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey2/ http://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey2/
    - mckoss 16y ago
      Very interesting. I wonder why Chrome wasn't mentioned at all in the survey. I would love to find some tools, like a Chrome extension, that could display an accessibility score for a web page and provide guidance on solving problems. For those of us not using screen readers, it's easy to overlook errors without realizing it.
      - ktsmith 16y ago
        The survey I linked to is the 2009 version there's also a follow up with more info. My guess is that after a year Chromes market share was so small as to be not worth discussing. The newer survey, which I should have linked initially, still doesn't mention but does show improvement over the time span between surveys. http://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey3/ http://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey3/ There's a few addons for firefox that focus on section 508 compliance but many of them are poorly maintained. You might want to look into this one, which I have not used myself however. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/qompliance/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/qompliance/
ktsmith 16y ago
One other small note. I don't see where document management is handled. I see the document listing and can get back and forth between documents I've created, but I don't see any way to delete those documents.
- mckoss 16y ago
  TBD feature...

by mckoss 16y ago

ktsmith 16y ago

Thanks for the quick replies. Given the additional information I can better answer your original question in the post of "would I use this." Due to the lack of a trusted agent anywhere in the stack I don't have any use cases that fit your model and so no I couldn't use it. Maybe a single player game or other toy. For the work that I typically do accessibility is also a huge factor and javascript can only be used for progressive enhancement so I couldn't create a 100% client side javascript application anyway.

mckoss 16y ago
Thanks so much for the thoughtful feedback. BTW, can you explain why you can't do page rendering in JavaScript for accessibility? Is there reason screen readers can deal with dynamically generated HTML?
- ktsmith 16y ago
  It's not that page rendering can't be done with JavaScript and still be accessible. My experience with it via testing is that due to the large number of screen readers, and then differences within versions of the even the most common screen readers (JAWS for example) is that you can't really expect a consistent experience for your users where you get much more consistency with vanilla HTML. The single largest complaint we received while testing with screen readers on our latest app was related to how the user was informed by their software about dynamically changed content, something I have no control over. The compromise that we implemented was to try to detect screen readers and offer to disable all JavaScript content since the site was designed to degrade gracefully anyway. This is going to be less of a problem for some companies than others, I just happen to be working on software that's designed to help HR departments with their hiring process and specifically with the accurate completion of certain federal forms. Getting complaints about violating the ADA could lead to lawsuits against my employer or our clients. Similar to the complaints that Google is receiving about accessibility problems in Google Apps and specifically gmail. Here's a pretty good survey that has some more information if you are interested in the topic: http://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey2/ http://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey2/
  - mckoss 16y ago
    Very interesting. I wonder why Chrome wasn't mentioned at all in the survey. I would love to find some tools, like a Chrome extension, that could display an accessibility score for a web page and provide guidance on solving problems. For those of us not using screen readers, it's easy to overlook errors without realizing it.
    - ktsmith 16y ago
      The survey I linked to is the 2009 version there's also a follow up with more info. My guess is that after a year Chromes market share was so small as to be not worth discussing. The newer survey, which I should have linked initially, still doesn't mention but does show improvement over the time span between surveys. http://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey3/ http://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey3/ There's a few addons for firefox that focus on section 508 compliance but many of them are poorly maintained. You might want to look into this one, which I have not used myself however. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/qompliance/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/qompliance/

ktsmith 16y ago

One other small note. I don't see where document management is handled. I see the document listing and can get back and forth between documents I've created, but I don't see any way to delete those documents.

mckoss 16y ago
TBD feature...