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Strategically, I wonder who has the most to lose if the Unreal engine is basically deplatformed from Apple. iOS is a huge game market, but how many iOS games a

by mey 6y ago

Strategically, I wonder who has the most to lose if the Unreal engine is basically deplatformed from Apple. iOS is a huge game market, but how many iOS games are powered by Unreal? macOS is a tiny game market. For game developers, between this and the ARM switch on macOS, this could be a serious death to gaming on macOS. I would also expect game developers to be mad at Epic to be playing chicken with their game engine, although that may be unexpected fall out. It might drive some game developers to move to other engines although this is probably a stretch.

DecoPerson 6y ago
Those game developers may also benefit from what comes of this ordeal. They too need to pay a 30% cut to Apple (plus some % to Epic for the Unreal Engine).
falcolas 6y ago
Given that iOS games/apps are purported to work on Arm based macOS, it’s actually a whole potentially new market.
an_opabinia 6y ago
> basically deplatformed from Apple. Nobody takes deplatforming seriously until it hits them. It's the slippery slope, played out in real time. Is this inaccurate? Epic doesn't make some fringe hate content, they make the world's most popular video game. Exactly zero normal people foresaw Epic losing access to the app store and development tools completely, regardless about how you feel about whether they should pay 30% or 0% or whatever in IAP fees. And now, only now, it's newsworthy that some app, like that WordPress app no one has heard of, also gets deplatformed for totally bullshit reasons. Every scenario is different, but surely you see, that it's about the power to deplatform, not the reasons, that people don't take seriously.
- hellisothers 6y ago
  These are totally different situations and comparing them will make things worse not better. Epic 100% knew this was going to happen and opted to do it anyway to throw bombs. They could continue to operate and make money but they want that 30%. Wordpress was not trying to make a dramatic point, they’re just trying to be a reasonable citizen and ran afoul of a policy.
yyyk 6y ago
Apple never cared about games (minus maybe a short period when the G4 came out), and gamedevs know it. Unreal was never a serious contender for iOS. So no serious immediate effect on either side. In the long run, gamedevs would be even more reluctant to provide iOS/MacOS builds, which doesn't matter at all since people don't buy Macs for gaming.
- benologist 6y ago
  Apple cares desperately about exclusivity since even before Cook. If Android has the same games and the same apps then there is less reason to favor iOS. There is nothing sacrificed to move between platforms. They don't care for any technology that fosters multi-platform games or apps. Apple Arcade could basically be called "Games Never On Android". > Here’s what being “exclusive to Apple Arcade” means. The game is a mobile-exclusive and cannot be released on other mobile operating systems ... Video game consoles are not considered mobile https://9to5mac.com/2019/09/13/apple-arcade-exclusive-means-not-on-android-consoles-are-fair-game/amp/ https://9to5mac.com/2019/09/13/apple-arcade-exclusive-means-... They even banned Unity3d, Mono and the concept of 'cross compilers' while they were waging war on Flash, who at that point were perfecting cross-platform compiling from Flash "the IDE" to native Android and iOS apps. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughts_on_Flash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughts_on_Flash > desire to avoid "a third party layer of software coming between the platform and the developer" They even are on record complaining about Amazon promoting Kindle books being accessible cross-platform. https://www.macrumors.com/2020/07/31/emails-apple-blocked-kindle-purchases/ https://www.macrumors.com/2020/07/31/emails-apple-blocked-ki... > While the primary message is that there are Kindle apps on lots of devices, the secondary message [something garbled] is that it is easy to switch from iPhone to Android
- Hamuko 6y ago
  >Apple never cared about games They're currently trying to sell people a gaming subscription service.
  - yyyk 6y ago
    Ah, wonderful. A platform where Apple can remove backward compatibility even more easily, and which forces you out of the other subscription services. The big difference between games and other software, is that typical devs also profit from Apple making changes, e.g. Adobe managing to deprecate their previous licences and switch to subscription-only without backlash since it's Apple changing the platform. So Adobe loses a bit from porting, but gains more from new subscriptions. Old games are almost never ported as is, at best they're "remade/remastered" which is a serious investment. So Apple making changes and choosing their own APIs is a pure loss for gamedevs. That's hardly the only problem but that's a big one.
bjo590 6y ago
> For game developers, between this and the ARM switch on macOS, this could be a serious death to gaming on macOS. ARM could be a boon for macOS gaming if it allows for better access to iOS titles.
- yyyk 6y ago
  It's rather unlikely that titles made for an entirely different control method and a screen smaller by a factor of 4 to 5 will provide a good experience.
  - bjo590 6y ago
    Not every game will, and many will need some modifications, but lots of games work great on iOS, console, and PC. Stardew Valley, Darkest Dungeon, Hearthstone are some examples that have controls that do well in multiple platforms. I personally think Clash Royal would be awesome with a mouse and keyboard.
    - yyyk 6y ago
      All your examples already had OSX ports, I'm sure they'll be on ARM Macs as well. The big 'winners' from easy iOS porting are likely be cheap iOS games with matching small technical effort to port [which is different from actually porting the gameplay/interface]. Hopefully Apple will improve discoverability in their store so they're easy to filter.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - zxcvbn4038 6y ago
    You already have games that work on both iPhone and iPad, and the iPad screen resolution is about the same as a MacBook retina, so I don’t see that being an issue. The different input methods wouldn’t be a huge deal either - fruit ninja with a mouse probably would not be quite the same, but couldn’t think of any other examples that wouldn’t work just fine with mouse or keyboard instead of touch events.
weego 6y ago
Epic wants to ship 'Epic Payments' as a built in and trivial to enable feature in every Unreal built game which I'm sure would give a much higher cut to devs which in turn would drive higher and higher %s of devs for IOS to their engine. This is Apple trying to ward off a business model they consider parasitic and destructive to a large chunk of their app store revenue.
- mdoms 6y ago
  What a world we live in where running code on a computer without giving a third of your revenue to that computer's manufacturer could be considered "parasitic" by anyone.
  - awinder 6y ago
    This is demonstrably untrue (from Hey.com to Netflix/Amazon and in between there’s plenty of ways to not give up 30/15% of your revenue). But even if it were true, it’s the same world that didn’t largely have computers in people’s pockets 15 years ago, and that then involved cell phone network operators defining 100% of the installed content on those computers. So this is one of those things where you can be as irate or happy as you want to be.

by mey 6y ago

DecoPerson 6y ago

Those game developers may also benefit from what comes of this ordeal. They too need to pay a 30% cut to Apple (plus some % to Epic for the Unreal Engine).

falcolas 6y ago

Given that iOS games/apps are purported to work on Arm based macOS, it’s actually a whole potentially new market.

an_opabinia 6y ago

> basically deplatformed from Apple. Nobody takes deplatforming seriously until it hits them. It's the slippery slope, played out in real time. Is this inaccurate? Epic doesn't make some fringe hate content, they make the world's most popular video game. Exactly zero normal people foresaw Epic losing access to the app store and development tools completely, regardless about how you feel about whether they should pay 30% or 0% or whatever in IAP fees. And now, only now, it's newsworthy that some app, like that WordPress app no one has heard of, also gets deplatformed for totally bullshit reasons. Every scenario is different, but surely you see, that it's about the power to deplatform, not the reasons, that people don't take seriously.

hellisothers 6y ago
These are totally different situations and comparing them will make things worse not better. Epic 100% knew this was going to happen and opted to do it anyway to throw bombs. They could continue to operate and make money but they want that 30%. Wordpress was not trying to make a dramatic point, they’re just trying to be a reasonable citizen and ran afoul of a policy.

yyyk 6y ago

Apple never cared about games (minus maybe a short period when the G4 came out), and gamedevs know it. Unreal was never a serious contender for iOS. So no serious immediate effect on either side. In the long run, gamedevs would be even more reluctant to provide iOS/MacOS builds, which doesn't matter at all since people don't buy Macs for gaming.

benologist 6y ago
Apple cares desperately about exclusivity since even before Cook. If Android has the same games and the same apps then there is less reason to favor iOS. There is nothing sacrificed to move between platforms. They don't care for any technology that fosters multi-platform games or apps. Apple Arcade could basically be called "Games Never On Android". > Here’s what being “exclusive to Apple Arcade” means. The game is a mobile-exclusive and cannot be released on other mobile operating systems ... Video game consoles are not considered mobile https://9to5mac.com/2019/09/13/apple-arcade-exclusive-means-not-on-android-consoles-are-fair-game/amp/ https://9to5mac.com/2019/09/13/apple-arcade-exclusive-means-... They even banned Unity3d, Mono and the concept of 'cross compilers' while they were waging war on Flash, who at that point were perfecting cross-platform compiling from Flash "the IDE" to native Android and iOS apps. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughts_on_Flash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughts_on_Flash > desire to avoid "a third party layer of software coming between the platform and the developer" They even are on record complaining about Amazon promoting Kindle books being accessible cross-platform. https://www.macrumors.com/2020/07/31/emails-apple-blocked-kindle-purchases/ https://www.macrumors.com/2020/07/31/emails-apple-blocked-ki... > While the primary message is that there are Kindle apps on lots of devices, the secondary message [something garbled] is that it is easy to switch from iPhone to Android
Hamuko 6y ago
>Apple never cared about games They're currently trying to sell people a gaming subscription service.
- yyyk 6y ago
  Ah, wonderful. A platform where Apple can remove backward compatibility even more easily, and which forces you out of the other subscription services. The big difference between games and other software, is that typical devs also profit from Apple making changes, e.g. Adobe managing to deprecate their previous licences and switch to subscription-only without backlash since it's Apple changing the platform. So Adobe loses a bit from porting, but gains more from new subscriptions. Old games are almost never ported as is, at best they're "remade/remastered" which is a serious investment. So Apple making changes and choosing their own APIs is a pure loss for gamedevs. That's hardly the only problem but that's a big one.

bjo590 6y ago

> For game developers, between this and the ARM switch on macOS, this could be a serious death to gaming on macOS. ARM could be a boon for macOS gaming if it allows for better access to iOS titles.

yyyk 6y ago
It's rather unlikely that titles made for an entirely different control method and a screen smaller by a factor of 4 to 5 will provide a good experience.
- bjo590 6y ago
  Not every game will, and many will need some modifications, but lots of games work great on iOS, console, and PC. Stardew Valley, Darkest Dungeon, Hearthstone are some examples that have controls that do well in multiple platforms. I personally think Clash Royal would be awesome with a mouse and keyboard.
  - yyyk 6y ago
    All your examples already had OSX ports, I'm sure they'll be on ARM Macs as well. The big 'winners' from easy iOS porting are likely be cheap iOS games with matching small technical effort to port [which is different from actually porting the gameplay/interface]. Hopefully Apple will improve discoverability in their store so they're easy to filter.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- zxcvbn4038 6y ago
  You already have games that work on both iPhone and iPad, and the iPad screen resolution is about the same as a MacBook retina, so I don’t see that being an issue. The different input methods wouldn’t be a huge deal either - fruit ninja with a mouse probably would not be quite the same, but couldn’t think of any other examples that wouldn’t work just fine with mouse or keyboard instead of touch events.

weego 6y ago

Epic wants to ship 'Epic Payments' as a built in and trivial to enable feature in every Unreal built game which I'm sure would give a much higher cut to devs which in turn would drive higher and higher %s of devs for IOS to their engine. This is Apple trying to ward off a business model they consider parasitic and destructive to a large chunk of their app store revenue.

mdoms 6y ago
What a world we live in where running code on a computer without giving a third of your revenue to that computer's manufacturer could be considered "parasitic" by anyone.
- awinder 6y ago
  This is demonstrably untrue (from Hey.com to Netflix/Amazon and in between there’s plenty of ways to not give up 30/15% of your revenue). But even if it were true, it’s the same world that didn’t largely have computers in people’s pockets 15 years ago, and that then involved cell phone network operators defining 100% of the installed content on those computers. So this is one of those things where you can be as irate or happy as you want to be.