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Apple is holding the Unreal Engine hostage, Epic says in new motion

53 points by ArmandGrillet 6y ago

phreack 6y ago
How can Apple prevent an unrelated dev from publishing something made with Unreal by banning Epic's account? Can't I deploy an app to the App Store with my own?
- falcolas 6y ago
  They can't. This is another attempt by Epic at gaining public sympathy for intentionally breaking the terms of their licensing agreement with Apple to publish on the app store.
  - n42 6y ago
    Between this PR nonsense and attempting to strong-arm it’s way into the market by introducing exclusives to PC, I have quite little sympathy for Epic. Apple’s “bad behavior” here ultimately aligns with my desires as a consumer. By controlling the marketplace, they enforce privacy and UX controls. They use that money to improve the products I use every day. I cannot say the same for Epic. Every battle they are starting is to degrade my experience as a consumer so they can make even more money.
  - gpm 6y ago
    This is a legal argument to a court attempting to get an injunction. It seems to me to have very little to do with public sympathy. The public really doesn't give a crap about whether or not their is one contract or multiple, or the quality of apples legal arguments, which seems to be some of the core issues raised in this motion responding to Apple's motion.
    - falcolas 6y ago
      It may also be a legal argument, but it's very clearly a move to gain public sentiment to their side - it's being published broadly by the media, after all. Epic is painting themselves as the underdogs being bullied by Apple - the multi-billion dollar contract-breaking underdog.
      - Gwypaas 6y ago
        Facing the multi-trillion dollar gorilla, if this would even be a relevent perspective.
      - cycloptic 6y ago
        When was Epic ever given a chance to negotiate the terms of this contract?
        falcolas 6y ago
        They were given the same chance as you and I are with Epic's TOS for their games/game store. They wanted access to the iOS market, and the terms were there.
        cycloptic 6y ago
        Which same chance is that? Please fill me in, I've never negotiated with Epic's game store.
        falcolas 6y ago
        Zero. It's take-it-or-leave-it. Standard contract negotiation "tactics" these days.
        cycloptic 6y ago
        That's unfortunate, maybe neither of them should be doing it?
- dna_polymerase 6y ago
  Apple could cut Epic's access to developer tools, which would make it impossible for Epic to support (patch and adding features) Unreal Engine on iOS and Mac. At least this is what the article states.
  - falcolas 6y ago
    The engine is released with the game, not as a stand-alone binary. The dev tools are a different story, but unrelated to the question. And even if this did impact the engine, perhaps epic should have thought about that when playing chicken with Apple.
    - kenny11 6y ago
      If I were looking for an engine to build a game on I'd have to think twice about using Unreal Engine in the future. Having the company that builds such a foundational component of the product in open war with one of the most important platforms it runs on is an added complication that would only harm me. In this case, it seems the goals of Epic the game publisher versus Epic the component supplier really don't align, and Epic the publisher's needs are winning out.
      - gpm 6y ago
        Disagree, this lawsuit strongly supports Epic the component suppliers business as well, because one of those components they can supply and make significant money off of is payment processing. There is a bit of a conflict between Epic the component supplier and Joe the game developer's goals here, because Joe the game developer doesn't really care whether it's Apple or Epic taking the payment processing cut. Joe doesn't necessarily lose either because Joe seems some benefit (just less) too due to competition lowering the cost of payment processing. It's just not clear cut. In reality it probably the case that some game developers will win thanks to lower cost of payment processing dominating their cost benefit analysis, and others will lose thanks to worse unreal engine platform support dominating their cost benefit analysis.
      - birdyrooster 6y ago
- an_opabinia 6y ago
  Apple can prevent it just by saying so, and you'd have no recourse. Is there something inaccurate about this answer? This is what this saga is all about.
mey 6y ago
Strategically, I wonder who has the most to lose if the Unreal engine is basically deplatformed from Apple. iOS is a huge game market, but how many iOS games are powered by Unreal? macOS is a tiny game market. For game developers, between this and the ARM switch on macOS, this could be a serious death to gaming on macOS. I would also expect game developers to be mad at Epic to be playing chicken with their game engine, although that may be unexpected fall out. It might drive some game developers to move to other engines although this is probably a stretch.
- DecoPerson 6y ago
  Those game developers may also benefit from what comes of this ordeal. They too need to pay a 30% cut to Apple (plus some % to Epic for the Unreal Engine).
- falcolas 6y ago
  Given that iOS games/apps are purported to work on Arm based macOS, it’s actually a whole potentially new market.
- an_opabinia 6y ago
  > basically deplatformed from Apple. Nobody takes deplatforming seriously until it hits them. It's the slippery slope, played out in real time. Is this inaccurate? Epic doesn't make some fringe hate content, they make the world's most popular video game. Exactly zero normal people foresaw Epic losing access to the app store and development tools completely, regardless about how you feel about whether they should pay 30% or 0% or whatever in IAP fees. And now, only now, it's newsworthy that some app, like that WordPress app no one has heard of, also gets deplatformed for totally bullshit reasons. Every scenario is different, but surely you see, that it's about the power to deplatform, not the reasons, that people don't take seriously.
  - hellisothers 6y ago
    These are totally different situations and comparing them will make things worse not better. Epic 100% knew this was going to happen and opted to do it anyway to throw bombs. They could continue to operate and make money but they want that 30%. Wordpress was not trying to make a dramatic point, they’re just trying to be a reasonable citizen and ran afoul of a policy.
mullingitover 6y ago
I have a feeling this was a calculated move for Epic to save face while abandoning MacOS development of the Unreal dev tools. If it really mattered to them, they could remove their TOS-violating hacks from Fortnite and get their developer license reinstated at any time. Keep in mind that everything here has been gamed out ahead of time by Epic. They knew they would get their app removed for the brazen TOS violation. They knew that it would result in their developer account being suspended, and they knew that it meant their other apps tied to that account would also be locked out.
- Gwypaas 6y ago
  To sue they need to have standing, simply asking and getting a no and then carrying on accepting the old standard won't get you anywhere.
  - Despegar 6y ago
    I really don't understand why people keep saying this. They had standing because they were a party to the Developer Program License Agreement. They would have had standing even if they weren't because they allege they're being denied use of an "essential facility".
    - an_opabinia 6y ago
      They had standing yeah. I think it's about showing reduction in consumer welfare - Apple delisted an app that lowered prices for consumers.
      - Despegar 6y ago
        Their stunt doesn't actually demonstrate that Apple's commission harms consumer welfare. If it did any retailer with a margin over the price of a manufacturer's goods would also be harming consumer welfare.
        an_opabinia 6y ago
wizzwizz4 6y ago
I want to support Epic, because they're challenging Apple's monopoly. But… I have a feeling they're not doing it to be nice to us, but because Apple's mooching off “their turf” (i.e. us) when they want to be doing all the mooching.
- weego 6y ago
  There no one to support here. If Epic was to force some kind of change here, expect Epic Pay in every Unreal game whi h may have benefits in the short term but how long does that ever last?
  - gpm 6y ago
    > but how long does that ever last? Forever? Because now there are competing payment providers.
    - xondono 6y ago
      How are they competing? Either the court rules that what Apple is doing is lawful, and is the single payment provider, or they decide it’s not, and Epic becomes the single payment processing provider for unreal games. Either way game devs have no choice
      - gpm 6y ago
        > and Epic becomes the single payment processing provider for unreal games. This seems like an unjustified assumption that Epic would attempt to leverage any monopoly they had on game engines to create a monopoly on payment processing. They haven't done this on desktop where they (up to legal issues) could, so I don't see why you think they would on IOS. Moreover, there is competition between game engines and gamedevs are not a captive audience to quite the same extent as consumers are. Moreover, if epic wins and they attempted this they would have literally established the precedent for Apple to sue them in return.
        6y ago
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dsign 6y ago
While I understand this is an ugly turf war between Epic and Apple, I'm a little confused about certain other app. How is it that Audible (owned by Amazon) let's you "spend credits" that you purchase at Audible.com directly in the iOS App? Are they getting special treatment?
- Hamuko 6y ago
  Doesn't Amazon have a better deal with Apple than pretty much anyone else?
- pacetherace 6y ago
  Apple is not opposed to payment systems that load money from a website into a platform like Spotify or Amazon. They are opposed to payment systems that bypass their Apple payment system from an app.
- xondono 6y ago
  It doesn’t. Purchases need to be done through the audible web. Even the amazon app doesn’t allow buying kindle ebooks directly.
  - sauwan 6y ago
    Seriously? Why do Apple users tolerate this?
falcolas 6y ago
A quick Meta aside: Even if you absolutely utterly and completely loathe Apple for their App store policies, Epic is not the company you want to be backing. 1) They engage in anti-customer behavior by buying exclusives. They don't fund exclusives, they buy exclusives after they've been completed. 2) If they can't get an Indie as an exclusive, they don't want it. They don't want to compete with Day and Date releases. 3) Their war chest is funded by gambling mechanics, mostly gambling mechanics which are actively aimed at minors. While I can understand arguments for "parents should parent" and "adults should be allowed to adult", Epic is based out of the US, and gambling is largely controlled within the US. 4) EDIT: Oh, and their weaponizing their minor-heavy userbase as well against Apple - their trailer and anti-apple skins are being promoted in Fortnight (Rated T by the ESRB). So yeah. Hate Apple all you want - there's plenty there to hate. But don't let your hatred of Apple push you into backing Epic.
- ohgodplsno 6y ago
  >They don't fund exclusives, they buy exclusives after they've been completed. Timed exclusives, mind you. Also, it literally doesn't matter and just changes where you download the game from, woohoo. Absolutely support Epic on this endeavor. Anything that can make Apple eat shit is a valuable investment of your time.
  - RHSeeger 6y ago
    It absolutely does matter, because every "app store" you install on your computer is one more attach vector you open up.
  - dang 6y ago
    Please don't post to HN in the flamewar style. It's not what this site is for.
- istorical 6y ago
  Two large evil corporations is better than one large evil corporation. It at least encourages consumer-friendly practices as a means of competition.
martin_bech 6y ago
No they are not, Epic decided to go all out, thereby risking the all ios business including the Unreal Engine.
twirlock 6y ago
Epic games is campaigning for irrelevance right now.
candiddevmike 6y ago
I am continuously surprised by the response from a lot of the HN community to this. I would never have expected people to be championing the kind of gate keeping Apple (and Google) have been enjoying for years. It hurts consumers by driving prices, forcing awful IAP business models, and holds back innovation due to private APIs or "policy violations". These app stores are filled with so much shit these days that it's impossible to find quality software, and the app store model gives these companies little opportunity to differentiate and sell their offerings. Give me the ability to install apps from any store, website, or platform. Give me the ability to use a device whatever way I decide. Incentive developers to create useful, enjoyable software instead of IAP shovelware. Make it the norm and break users from depending on The One App Store.
- pwinnski 6y ago
  You have that ability: buy any android phone!
- darksaints 6y ago
  I've learned to no longer be surprised by it. There are a huge amount of people in this industry who have staked their personal identity in a brand. Apple, Tesla, Google, or whatever. It's no different than the high school behavior I grew up with where you were allowed be one of three types of people: Chevy, Ford, or Dodge.
  - ResidentSleeper 6y ago
    The unusually downvoted answer holds the key to the riddle: it's the hardcoded tribalism making us justify our purchases as if they're political statements.
    - benologist 6y ago
      I think we're like crabs in a bucket, got to pull each other down if we see someone close to getting what they want.
    - sidibe 6y ago
dep_b 6y ago
Any iOS developer at Epic can still use their own developer account, even a free one, to access all of the tools they need. The only thing impossible is _deploying_ their own software like Fortnite. Any 3rd party Unity dev has it’s own certificate and isn’t hurt by this. Pretending you’re blocked on doing anything for iOS and macOS because the account you use to deploy Fortnite has been locked is bullshit

53 points by ArmandGrillet 6y ago

How can Apple prevent an unrelated dev from publishing something made with Unreal by banning Epic's account? Can't I deploy an app to the App Store with my own?

falcolas 6y ago
They can't. This is another attempt by Epic at gaining public sympathy for intentionally breaking the terms of their licensing agreement with Apple to publish on the app store.
- n42 6y ago
  Between this PR nonsense and attempting to strong-arm it’s way into the market by introducing exclusives to PC, I have quite little sympathy for Epic. Apple’s “bad behavior” here ultimately aligns with my desires as a consumer. By controlling the marketplace, they enforce privacy and UX controls. They use that money to improve the products I use every day. I cannot say the same for Epic. Every battle they are starting is to degrade my experience as a consumer so they can make even more money.
- gpm 6y ago
  This is a legal argument to a court attempting to get an injunction. It seems to me to have very little to do with public sympathy. The public really doesn't give a crap about whether or not their is one contract or multiple, or the quality of apples legal arguments, which seems to be some of the core issues raised in this motion responding to Apple's motion.
  - falcolas 6y ago
    It may also be a legal argument, but it's very clearly a move to gain public sentiment to their side - it's being published broadly by the media, after all. Epic is painting themselves as the underdogs being bullied by Apple - the multi-billion dollar contract-breaking underdog.
    - Gwypaas 6y ago
      Facing the multi-trillion dollar gorilla, if this would even be a relevent perspective.
    - cycloptic 6y ago
      When was Epic ever given a chance to negotiate the terms of this contract?
      - falcolas 6y ago
        They were given the same chance as you and I are with Epic's TOS for their games/game store. They wanted access to the iOS market, and the terms were there.
        cycloptic 6y ago
        Which same chance is that? Please fill me in, I've never negotiated with Epic's game store.
        falcolas 6y ago
        Zero. It's take-it-or-leave-it. Standard contract negotiation "tactics" these days.
        cycloptic 6y ago
        That's unfortunate, maybe neither of them should be doing it?
dna_polymerase 6y ago
Apple could cut Epic's access to developer tools, which would make it impossible for Epic to support (patch and adding features) Unreal Engine on iOS and Mac. At least this is what the article states.
- falcolas 6y ago
  The engine is released with the game, not as a stand-alone binary. The dev tools are a different story, but unrelated to the question. And even if this did impact the engine, perhaps epic should have thought about that when playing chicken with Apple.
  - kenny11 6y ago
    If I were looking for an engine to build a game on I'd have to think twice about using Unreal Engine in the future. Having the company that builds such a foundational component of the product in open war with one of the most important platforms it runs on is an added complication that would only harm me. In this case, it seems the goals of Epic the game publisher versus Epic the component supplier really don't align, and Epic the publisher's needs are winning out.
    - gpm 6y ago
      Disagree, this lawsuit strongly supports Epic the component suppliers business as well, because one of those components they can supply and make significant money off of is payment processing. There is a bit of a conflict between Epic the component supplier and Joe the game developer's goals here, because Joe the game developer doesn't really care whether it's Apple or Epic taking the payment processing cut. Joe doesn't necessarily lose either because Joe seems some benefit (just less) too due to competition lowering the cost of payment processing. It's just not clear cut. In reality it probably the case that some game developers will win thanks to lower cost of payment processing dominating their cost benefit analysis, and others will lose thanks to worse unreal engine platform support dominating their cost benefit analysis.
    - birdyrooster 6y ago
an_opabinia 6y ago
Apple can prevent it just by saying so, and you'd have no recourse. Is there something inaccurate about this answer? This is what this saga is all about.

mey 6y ago

Strategically, I wonder who has the most to lose if the Unreal engine is basically deplatformed from Apple. iOS is a huge game market, but how many iOS games are powered by Unreal? macOS is a tiny game market. For game developers, between this and the ARM switch on macOS, this could be a serious death to gaming on macOS. I would also expect game developers to be mad at Epic to be playing chicken with their game engine, although that may be unexpected fall out. It might drive some game developers to move to other engines although this is probably a stretch.

DecoPerson 6y ago
Those game developers may also benefit from what comes of this ordeal. They too need to pay a 30% cut to Apple (plus some % to Epic for the Unreal Engine).
falcolas 6y ago
Given that iOS games/apps are purported to work on Arm based macOS, it’s actually a whole potentially new market.
an_opabinia 6y ago
> basically deplatformed from Apple. Nobody takes deplatforming seriously until it hits them. It's the slippery slope, played out in real time. Is this inaccurate? Epic doesn't make some fringe hate content, they make the world's most popular video game. Exactly zero normal people foresaw Epic losing access to the app store and development tools completely, regardless about how you feel about whether they should pay 30% or 0% or whatever in IAP fees. And now, only now, it's newsworthy that some app, like that WordPress app no one has heard of, also gets deplatformed for totally bullshit reasons. Every scenario is different, but surely you see, that it's about the power to deplatform, not the reasons, that people don't take seriously.
- hellisothers 6y ago
  These are totally different situations and comparing them will make things worse not better. Epic 100% knew this was going to happen and opted to do it anyway to throw bombs. They could continue to operate and make money but they want that 30%. Wordpress was not trying to make a dramatic point, they’re just trying to be a reasonable citizen and ran afoul of a policy.

mullingitover 6y ago

I have a feeling this was a calculated move for Epic to save face while abandoning MacOS development of the Unreal dev tools. If it really mattered to them, they could remove their TOS-violating hacks from Fortnite and get their developer license reinstated at any time. Keep in mind that everything here has been gamed out ahead of time by Epic. They knew they would get their app removed for the brazen TOS violation. They knew that it would result in their developer account being suspended, and they knew that it meant their other apps tied to that account would also be locked out.

Gwypaas 6y ago
To sue they need to have standing, simply asking and getting a no and then carrying on accepting the old standard won't get you anywhere.
- Despegar 6y ago
  I really don't understand why people keep saying this. They had standing because they were a party to the Developer Program License Agreement. They would have had standing even if they weren't because they allege they're being denied use of an "essential facility".
  - an_opabinia 6y ago
    They had standing yeah. I think it's about showing reduction in consumer welfare - Apple delisted an app that lowered prices for consumers.
    - Despegar 6y ago
      Their stunt doesn't actually demonstrate that Apple's commission harms consumer welfare. If it did any retailer with a margin over the price of a manufacturer's goods would also be harming consumer welfare.
      - an_opabinia 6y ago

wizzwizz4 6y ago

I want to support Epic, because they're challenging Apple's monopoly. But… I have a feeling they're not doing it to be nice to us, but because Apple's mooching off “their turf” (i.e. us) when they want to be doing all the mooching.

weego 6y ago
There no one to support here. If Epic was to force some kind of change here, expect Epic Pay in every Unreal game whi h may have benefits in the short term but how long does that ever last?
- gpm 6y ago
  > but how long does that ever last? Forever? Because now there are competing payment providers.
  - xondono 6y ago
    How are they competing? Either the court rules that what Apple is doing is lawful, and is the single payment provider, or they decide it’s not, and Epic becomes the single payment processing provider for unreal games. Either way game devs have no choice
    - gpm 6y ago
      > and Epic becomes the single payment processing provider for unreal games. This seems like an unjustified assumption that Epic would attempt to leverage any monopoly they had on game engines to create a monopoly on payment processing. They haven't done this on desktop where they (up to legal issues) could, so I don't see why you think they would on IOS. Moreover, there is competition between game engines and gamedevs are not a captive audience to quite the same extent as consumers are. Moreover, if epic wins and they attempted this they would have literally established the precedent for Apple to sue them in return.
      - 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

dsign 6y ago

While I understand this is an ugly turf war between Epic and Apple, I'm a little confused about certain other app. How is it that Audible (owned by Amazon) let's you "spend credits" that you purchase at Audible.com directly in the iOS App? Are they getting special treatment?

Hamuko 6y ago
Doesn't Amazon have a better deal with Apple than pretty much anyone else?
pacetherace 6y ago
Apple is not opposed to payment systems that load money from a website into a platform like Spotify or Amazon. They are opposed to payment systems that bypass their Apple payment system from an app.
xondono 6y ago
It doesn’t. Purchases need to be done through the audible web. Even the amazon app doesn’t allow buying kindle ebooks directly.
- sauwan 6y ago
  Seriously? Why do Apple users tolerate this?

falcolas 6y ago

A quick Meta aside: Even if you absolutely utterly and completely loathe Apple for their App store policies, Epic is not the company you want to be backing. 1) They engage in anti-customer behavior by buying exclusives. They don't fund exclusives, they buy exclusives after they've been completed. 2) If they can't get an Indie as an exclusive, they don't want it. They don't want to compete with Day and Date releases. 3) Their war chest is funded by gambling mechanics, mostly gambling mechanics which are actively aimed at minors. While I can understand arguments for "parents should parent" and "adults should be allowed to adult", Epic is based out of the US, and gambling is largely controlled within the US. 4) EDIT: Oh, and their weaponizing their minor-heavy userbase as well against Apple - their trailer and anti-apple skins are being promoted in Fortnight (Rated T by the ESRB). So yeah. Hate Apple all you want - there's plenty there to hate. But don't let your hatred of Apple push you into backing Epic.

ohgodplsno 6y ago
>They don't fund exclusives, they buy exclusives after they've been completed. Timed exclusives, mind you. Also, it literally doesn't matter and just changes where you download the game from, woohoo. Absolutely support Epic on this endeavor. Anything that can make Apple eat shit is a valuable investment of your time.
- RHSeeger 6y ago
  It absolutely does matter, because every "app store" you install on your computer is one more attach vector you open up.
- dang 6y ago
  Please don't post to HN in the flamewar style. It's not what this site is for.
istorical 6y ago
Two large evil corporations is better than one large evil corporation. It at least encourages consumer-friendly practices as a means of competition.

martin_bech 6y ago

No they are not, Epic decided to go all out, thereby risking the all ios business including the Unreal Engine.

twirlock 6y ago

Epic games is campaigning for irrelevance right now.

candiddevmike 6y ago

I am continuously surprised by the response from a lot of the HN community to this. I would never have expected people to be championing the kind of gate keeping Apple (and Google) have been enjoying for years. It hurts consumers by driving prices, forcing awful IAP business models, and holds back innovation due to private APIs or "policy violations". These app stores are filled with so much shit these days that it's impossible to find quality software, and the app store model gives these companies little opportunity to differentiate and sell their offerings. Give me the ability to install apps from any store, website, or platform. Give me the ability to use a device whatever way I decide. Incentive developers to create useful, enjoyable software instead of IAP shovelware. Make it the norm and break users from depending on The One App Store.

pwinnski 6y ago
You have that ability: buy any android phone!
darksaints 6y ago
I've learned to no longer be surprised by it. There are a huge amount of people in this industry who have staked their personal identity in a brand. Apple, Tesla, Google, or whatever. It's no different than the high school behavior I grew up with where you were allowed be one of three types of people: Chevy, Ford, or Dodge.
- ResidentSleeper 6y ago
  The unusually downvoted answer holds the key to the riddle: it's the hardcoded tribalism making us justify our purchases as if they're political statements.
  - benologist 6y ago
    I think we're like crabs in a bucket, got to pull each other down if we see someone close to getting what they want.
  - sidibe 6y ago

dep_b 6y ago

Any iOS developer at Epic can still use their own developer account, even a free one, to access all of the tools they need. The only thing impossible is _deploying_ their own software like Fortnite. Any 3rd party Unity dev has it’s own certificate and isn’t hurt by this. Pretending you’re blocked on doing anything for iOS and macOS because the account you use to deploy Fortnite has been locked is bullshit