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> I don't see how you "reform" a culture like that. You do it through hard work on real reform at the local level, something that BLM (the organization) isn't

> I don't see how you "reform" a culture like that. You do it through hard work on real reform at the local level, something that BLM (the organization) isn't really interested in. I don't agree with everything but the ideas outlined here https://www.joincampaignzero.org https://www.joincampaignzero.org are a good start. Some communities are in much worse situation than others and I think new leadership is urgently needed in many of these places (i.e., vote for change). The rhetoric that you are using is supremely dangerous. Look what is going on in Portland as the police and local political leadership have withdrawn from the basic goal of public safety and ensuring a peaceful, civil community. It is devolving into warring tribes. It is actually astonishing to me that it hasn't escalated further than it has but I see that this weekend things have changed a bit as some new tribes arrived resulting in brawls/skirmishes/fighting between the tribes as opposed to with police. To advocate or even suggest that policing, as a system, is irredeemably flawed and can't be reformed is to actively invite in chaos and civil unrest. Instead of a civil police force you will end up with an ad-hoc collection of private security, thugs, violent gangs, protection rackets, and so on. Due process will not exist and whatever problems you attribute to the current system will be much, much worse in this new "system".

deleted 6y ago
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glitcher 6y ago
> You do it through hard work on real reform at the local level, something that BLM (the organization) isn't really interested in. But aren't you making the same type of over-generalization as the comment you are replying to? I think there are many within the BLM movement who are working towards thoughtful change at the local level within their respective communities. But just like any large organization, the most extreme viewpoints tend to get the most attention, and those within the organization with the loudest voices tend to be the ones who push for the more extreme agendas. I think it's important to keep in mind that any large organization is made up of individual people who each have their own opinions, motivations and goals, and often times those may be in conflict with the broader messaging of the group. Your last paragraph really lost me though. I get it that you are addressing the most extreme version of the original post, but for me personally that didn't seem very constructive and I didn't find the appeals to fear mongering very convincing either.
newacct583 6y ago
> Instead of a civil police force you will end up with an ad-hoc collection of private security, thugs, violent gangs, protection rackets, and so on Uh... I don't think that's what I said, at all. I said we need new cops and a new law enforcement organization, because the old one is polluted beyond redemption.
- gwright 6y ago
  Perhaps I assumed a bit too much. You did indeed suggest that everything had to be replaced as opposed to discarded. I don't see how that is practical in the real world though. I still would argue that your generalization that all policing is broken is very dangerous rhetoric and I don't think it is true). Civil society exists in part because of a tacit assumption that the police are always there to "police". At some level we agree to be policed. The non-police outnumber the police so there has to be some basic agreement that people will behave for it to all work. If you convince everyone that the police as a whole are irredeemably bad/evil/racist etc. you've destroyed that tacit agreement and that civil society breaks down. We are seeing glimpses of that in the places where politicians and DAs have decided to put a pause on basic policing. A lot of people are discovering they don't have to behave.

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glitcher 6y ago

> You do it through hard work on real reform at the local level, something that BLM (the organization) isn't really interested in. But aren't you making the same type of over-generalization as the comment you are replying to? I think there are many within the BLM movement who are working towards thoughtful change at the local level within their respective communities. But just like any large organization, the most extreme viewpoints tend to get the most attention, and those within the organization with the loudest voices tend to be the ones who push for the more extreme agendas. I think it's important to keep in mind that any large organization is made up of individual people who each have their own opinions, motivations and goals, and often times those may be in conflict with the broader messaging of the group. Your last paragraph really lost me though. I get it that you are addressing the most extreme version of the original post, but for me personally that didn't seem very constructive and I didn't find the appeals to fear mongering very convincing either.

newacct583 6y ago

> Instead of a civil police force you will end up with an ad-hoc collection of private security, thugs, violent gangs, protection rackets, and so on Uh... I don't think that's what I said, at all. I said we need new cops and a new law enforcement organization, because the old one is polluted beyond redemption.

gwright 6y ago
Perhaps I assumed a bit too much. You did indeed suggest that everything had to be replaced as opposed to discarded. I don't see how that is practical in the real world though. I still would argue that your generalization that all policing is broken is very dangerous rhetoric and I don't think it is true). Civil society exists in part because of a tacit assumption that the police are always there to "police". At some level we agree to be policed. The non-police outnumber the police so there has to be some basic agreement that people will behave for it to all work. If you convince everyone that the police as a whole are irredeemably bad/evil/racist etc. you've destroyed that tacit agreement and that civil society breaks down. We are seeing glimpses of that in the places where politicians and DAs have decided to put a pause on basic policing. A lot of people are discovering they don't have to behave.