4 ms·

How could two organizations of thousands of people ever be completely 100% identical, and why does that matter at all if neither party has rolled back these mas

How could two organizations of thousands of people ever be completely 100% identical, and why does that matter at all if neither party has rolled back these massively unpopular policies, even when controlling both houses of Congress and the executive?

tartuffe78 6y ago
Massively unpopular? I doubt most people are aware of them, and many would be in favor for protecting us from terrorism/drugs.
- sthnblllII 6y ago
  Yes, massively unpopular. Pew research found that 66% of americans opposed government data collection. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/11/15/key-takeaways-on-americans-views-about-privacy-surveillance-and-data-sharing/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/11/15/key-takeawa...
  - slg 6y ago
    We do have to keep context in mind. If you ask a question in general about data collection, will you get different answers than if you asked specifically about collecting data at the border?
    - monadic2 6y ago
      What are you basing this on?
      - slg 6y ago
        It was a question and not a statement so I don't need to base it on anything beyond knowing that how you ask a question in a survey is incredibly influential on the response you get. I would guess that "Do you oppose government data collection?" would get different answers than "Would you support government data collection at the border in order to try to curtail illegal immigration and terrorism?" which is how this administration will likely defend this.
        monadic2 6y ago
        Sure, but you have no basis for assuming that people would buy that crap, yet you're implying there is evidence they would.
        slg 6y ago
        > yet you're implying there is evidence they would My first comment on the issue was a question and my second one was prefixed with "I would guess...". I don't know how you can read either of those comments and assume that I am stating anything definitive.
        monadic2 6y ago
        Well, you commented. Silly of me to assume there was something you were trying to add to the conversation.
        AnimalMuppet 6y ago
        His question adds more than you carping about his question does...
        slg 6y ago
        I stated a simple question asking if the linked survey was too general to definitively indicate how the public would feel about this specific issue. I then followed up with a guess about public opinion that was clearly labeled a guess. I honestly don't understand what prompted the hostile tone of your comments, but I apologize if my comments offended you in some way.
        sthnblllII 6y ago
        Could some questions really be arguments?
        Hnrobert42 6y ago
        It may not be your intention, but the tone of your comments is very aggressive. Further, your sarcasm is off-putting. I understand this is a hot-button issue, so maybe take a breather.
Someone 6y ago
Game theory. If people vote for the party promising policies closest to (using whatever metric) their ideals, and there are only two parties, optimal strategy for each party is to move as close to the center as possible. They wouldn’t lose voters with ‘extreme’ ideals because, if they decided to not vote, parties would counteract by moving towards the new center, which would be further removed from the ideals of those voters abstaining from voting.
- sthnblllII 6y ago
  66% of americans oppose government data collection. Obviously neither party is anywhere near the ‘middle’ and other political forces are driving what legislation gets passed. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/11/15/key-takeawa.. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/11/15/key-takeawa....
- aftbit 6y ago
  How do you square that with the rise of the Tea Party and the Alt-Right? It seems like they've found that they can motivate people to vote by moving _further_ from the center, and the moderates continue to vote the party line of whichever party they prefer.
  - Someone 6y ago
    Alt-right or the tea party would lose an election against a center-line party, big time. Motivating people with ‘extreme’ opinions from one side of the spectrum to vote moves the center, so it can make both parties move in that direction. Let’s (in a very simplistic model) say we have 100 voters on a 1 to 100 scale, so centered around 50.5. If, normally, the extremes of 1 to 10 and 91 to 100 don’t vote, the center stays at 50.5. Convince the 1 to 10 people to vote, and the center moves to 45.5, so the two major parties move in that direction, too. There’s an assumption here that most politicians are willing to, somewhat, go against their beliefs in order to get elected. I think that’s true, and unavoidable in a two-party system (which, in turn, is hard to avoid in a system with “winner takes all” elections), but if it weren’t, parties can easily replace candidates that object to a course change with others that either have different ideals or are willing to sacrifice some of that a bit in exchange for their career.
ryandrake 6y ago
They are not 100% identical, but they do agree on a huge number (a majority?) of important political issues, particularly in defense, foreign policy and economics, and make a big show of arguing over the other topics in order to try to differentiate themselves.

tartuffe78 6y ago

Massively unpopular? I doubt most people are aware of them, and many would be in favor for protecting us from terrorism/drugs.

sthnblllII 6y ago
Yes, massively unpopular. Pew research found that 66% of americans opposed government data collection. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/11/15/key-takeaways-on-americans-views-about-privacy-surveillance-and-data-sharing/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/11/15/key-takeawa...
- slg 6y ago
  We do have to keep context in mind. If you ask a question in general about data collection, will you get different answers than if you asked specifically about collecting data at the border?
  - monadic2 6y ago
    What are you basing this on?
    - slg 6y ago
      It was a question and not a statement so I don't need to base it on anything beyond knowing that how you ask a question in a survey is incredibly influential on the response you get. I would guess that "Do you oppose government data collection?" would get different answers than "Would you support government data collection at the border in order to try to curtail illegal immigration and terrorism?" which is how this administration will likely defend this.
      - monadic2 6y ago
        Sure, but you have no basis for assuming that people would buy that crap, yet you're implying there is evidence they would.
        slg 6y ago
        > yet you're implying there is evidence they would My first comment on the issue was a question and my second one was prefixed with "I would guess...". I don't know how you can read either of those comments and assume that I am stating anything definitive.
        monadic2 6y ago
        Well, you commented. Silly of me to assume there was something you were trying to add to the conversation.
        AnimalMuppet 6y ago
        His question adds more than you carping about his question does...
        slg 6y ago
        I stated a simple question asking if the linked survey was too general to definitively indicate how the public would feel about this specific issue. I then followed up with a guess about public opinion that was clearly labeled a guess. I honestly don't understand what prompted the hostile tone of your comments, but I apologize if my comments offended you in some way.
        sthnblllII 6y ago
        Could some questions really be arguments?
        Hnrobert42 6y ago
        It may not be your intention, but the tone of your comments is very aggressive. Further, your sarcasm is off-putting. I understand this is a hot-button issue, so maybe take a breather.

Someone 6y ago

Game theory. If people vote for the party promising policies closest to (using whatever metric) their ideals, and there are only two parties, optimal strategy for each party is to move as close to the center as possible. They wouldn’t lose voters with ‘extreme’ ideals because, if they decided to not vote, parties would counteract by moving towards the new center, which would be further removed from the ideals of those voters abstaining from voting.

sthnblllII 6y ago
66% of americans oppose government data collection. Obviously neither party is anywhere near the ‘middle’ and other political forces are driving what legislation gets passed. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/11/15/key-takeawa.. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/11/15/key-takeawa....
aftbit 6y ago
How do you square that with the rise of the Tea Party and the Alt-Right? It seems like they've found that they can motivate people to vote by moving _further_ from the center, and the moderates continue to vote the party line of whichever party they prefer.
- Someone 6y ago
  Alt-right or the tea party would lose an election against a center-line party, big time. Motivating people with ‘extreme’ opinions from one side of the spectrum to vote moves the center, so it can make both parties move in that direction. Let’s (in a very simplistic model) say we have 100 voters on a 1 to 100 scale, so centered around 50.5. If, normally, the extremes of 1 to 10 and 91 to 100 don’t vote, the center stays at 50.5. Convince the 1 to 10 people to vote, and the center moves to 45.5, so the two major parties move in that direction, too. There’s an assumption here that most politicians are willing to, somewhat, go against their beliefs in order to get elected. I think that’s true, and unavoidable in a two-party system (which, in turn, is hard to avoid in a system with “winner takes all” elections), but if it weren’t, parties can easily replace candidates that object to a course change with others that either have different ideals or are willing to sacrifice some of that a bit in exchange for their career.

ryandrake 6y ago

They are not 100% identical, but they do agree on a huge number (a majority?) of important political issues, particularly in defense, foreign policy and economics, and make a big show of arguing over the other topics in order to try to differentiate themselves.