7 ms·

Police should never be permitted to direct medical professionals to do anything to a person in their custody unless it is to save their life. Medical profession

Police should never be permitted to direct medical professionals to do anything to a person in their custody unless it is to save their life. Medical professionals should be hyper-trained on how to tell police “hell no” and to report their requests to an independent agency for investigation. There are other types of scenarios where out of control cops bully doctors and nurses into doing illegal things, two that I have read about: - forcing a suspect to be subject to anal cavity search by a doctor at a hospital after a traffic stop - forcing hospital staff to run blood tests on an awake, non-consenting suspect Everyone who has ever dealt with the medical world for a personal or family problem understands that there are few “sure things” and that something that worked miraculously for someone’s problem might not work for yours, even if they seem like the same problem. Allowing police a position to direct medical care is utterly outrageous and irresponsible. That said, what was done to Elijah McCain is one of the sickest, most unacceptably fucked up nightmare scenarios I’ve ever heard of. The initial interaction was a result of racist police who then had their victim murdered because they never saw him as a person, just another potential criminal.

dkersten 6y ago
Agreed. Police should have less powers, not more.
lsllc 6y ago
Medical professionals do refuse! If you remember Alex Wubbels a nurse who refused to do a blood draw stating that she would not unless the patient was under arrest, a warrant had been issued or the patient had consented. She was arrested, although not charged and was later apologized to. The cop was fired and it also lead to Utah changing its blood draw laws. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_University_of_Utah_Hospital_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_University_of_Utah_Hospit...
Natsu 6y ago
It's used as a treatment for drug overdoses ("excited delerium") which appears to be why it was used here. Of course it's a catch-all term, there's no way to tell offhand just what street drugs someone is on. There has to be a reason it took half a dozen people to hold him down. Also, there's no mention in this article of police directing the paramedics to do anything. Can you point me to what gave you that idea?
- tmp538394722 6y ago
  Where in the world did you hear that Elijah McClain was having a drug overdose before the police showed up?! No one has said that. You are fabricating.
  - Natsu 6y ago
    I said that's what ketamine is used for. I never said he was on drugs, as I do not know that. I only said that it's not normal to need a bunch of people to hold someone down.
    - tmp538394722 6y ago
      > It's used as a treatment for drug overdoses ("excited delerium") which appears to be why it was used here. Why does it “appear” that way? Please edit your post rather than spreading misinformation.
      - Natsu 6y ago
        Those on the scene certainly thought this was the case, which is basically the only reason they use that drug in the first place in the context of an arrest. I don't claim to know one way or another whether they were right, but I would note that dying of a heart attack is inconsistent with ketamine as the cause. Maybe they gave him too much, but the article leaves one to conclude that this was somehow related to his death even though it never actually says so.
  - kittiepryde 6y ago
    I did get this from Wikipedia, 'After McClain was restrained more officers arrived and audio of the conversation records them saying that McClain was "acting crazy", that he was "definitely on something", and that he had attacked them with "incredible, crazy strength" when they tried to restrain him.' They did not use the words, 'he was on drugs', but there is a strong implication based on the audio that this is what the police were claiming.
- 6y ago
jupp0r 6y ago
On the other hand: at least they are asking medical professionals instead of giving shots themselves.
- peteradio 6y ago
  You say that like its a positive. It would be much more straightforward to prosecute an officer injecting ketamine. The medical "professionals" are catspaws.
- notagoodidea 6y ago
  Because that would be blatantly illegal? Never stopped crappy police officiers to do crappy things but hey.
- pessimizer 6y ago
  Which is what would start happening if professional medical associations banned the practice.
ashtonkem 6y ago
The cops involved went back to where they killed Elijah McCain and posed for a group photo, reportedly re-enacting his death. This is the behavior I’d expect from a serial killer. Edit: they then distributed or showed this photo to the rest of the precinct. We know because a whistleblower notified the media. To my eye, this means that they expected the rest of the precinct to approve of this behavior, which is extremely alarming.
- minitoar 6y ago
  This shouldn’t be alarming. This is consistent with the behavior we’ve been seeing all year. This is status quo.
  - antioink 6y ago
    It should be alarming - it's important not to get used to such abhorrent behavior, just because it's the status quo.
    - minitoar 6y ago
      I cannot maintain a state of alarm for years on end.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    The difference between our points is the subtle difference between alarm and surprise. I’d contend that one can be alarmed even if they’re not surprised; although even I am inclined to admit that this is pretty low value pedantry on my part.
- obiye6657 6y ago
  Daily reminder: THERE ARE NO GOOD COPS. Do not cooperate and do not trust them.
- puranjay 6y ago
  > The cops involved went back to where they killed Elijah McCain and posed for a group photo, reportedly re-enacting his death What compels someone to do that?
JshWright 6y ago
I work as a paramedic, and on occasion have to sedate folks. I have never (and will never) sedated someone at the request of the police. I can think of two occasions where the decision to sedate was a discussion between the cops and I (trying to come up with alternatives). It's also common for me to ask the police for assistance physically restraining someone in order to make the sedation process safer. That's as far as the involvement of the police should go. I agree 100% with your assessment of Elijah McCain's killing. That being said, sedation is an important tool, and often the safest course of action for a patient that would otherwise be a danger to themselves or others. A prolonged fight can be fatal for someone who is pushing their body further than it should go. It definitely has to be done correctly though, and given the number of cases where it was very clearly done incorrectly, I do think changes need to be made.
cmurf 6y ago
It's unquestionably a lynching. But this is what this perverted culture tolerates. Rather than the public participating in the lynching directly, it has hired professional lynchers.
- antioink 6y ago
  True, and I think there are lot of deniers of how the racist history of the US influences its racist present. The mindset that permits people to shrug off the killing of Elijah McClain, and assume he must have done something to deserve it, is the same that celebrated public lynchings.
  - dang 6y ago
    Could you please not post in the flamewar style to HN? Especially not the ideological flamewar style? We're trying for something other than scorched earth here. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site to heart, we'd be grateful.
    - malcolmgreaves 6y ago
      They're being completely civil. This does not at all sound like an "ideological flame war." Racism in society isn't an ideologocal point. It's reality. They're pointing out facts that are uncomfortable. If the "spirit" of HN is truly about intellectual curiosity around things that relate to tech and entrepreneurship, then HN needs to embrace the fact that society ultimately rules over all -- most certainly tech and business. I fear that your comment here and re-direction to "the rules" is a censorship attempt because this is an uncomfortable thing go think about. Is HN a place where discussion about social problems that infect all of tech, business, and entrepreneurship not allowed? Is talking about racism "ideological"?
      - dang 6y ago
        Usually I'm responding to an account's recent history, not just one comment. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24253754 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24253754, for example, affects the priors. HN has been having lots of discussion about racism, just as the rest of society has been (or rather, societies, since many countries are represented here). If your question ("Is HN a place where discussion about social problems [is] not allowed") comes up, that can only be because of unfamiliarity with the history. If you want to get more familiar, HN Search is a great resource (see the box at the bottom of every page). The process of how we moderate political and ideological topics on HN is pretty stable by now. If you want to know what it is, check out the past explanations at https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=political%20overlap%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so.... There's a lot there; you could start with https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21607844 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21607844 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22902396 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22902396. People often feel like their most-important topic is under-represented or outright suppressed on HN. Even the most common topic feels "censored" to some people (see e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624962 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624962). This is an unfortunate consequence of frontpage space being the scarcest resource on HN: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20scarce&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que....
satokema_work 6y ago
Don't forget psych evaluations - with the implication that they should be found unfit for release. This one is a favorite of "cops" that don't actually have authority to arrest people or no probable cause for it.

dkersten 6y ago

Agreed. Police should have less powers, not more.

lsllc 6y ago

Medical professionals do refuse! If you remember Alex Wubbels a nurse who refused to do a blood draw stating that she would not unless the patient was under arrest, a warrant had been issued or the patient had consented. She was arrested, although not charged and was later apologized to. The cop was fired and it also lead to Utah changing its blood draw laws. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_University_of_Utah_Hospital_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_University_of_Utah_Hospit...

Natsu 6y ago

It's used as a treatment for drug overdoses ("excited delerium") which appears to be why it was used here. Of course it's a catch-all term, there's no way to tell offhand just what street drugs someone is on. There has to be a reason it took half a dozen people to hold him down. Also, there's no mention in this article of police directing the paramedics to do anything. Can you point me to what gave you that idea?

tmp538394722 6y ago
Where in the world did you hear that Elijah McClain was having a drug overdose before the police showed up?! No one has said that. You are fabricating.
- Natsu 6y ago
  I said that's what ketamine is used for. I never said he was on drugs, as I do not know that. I only said that it's not normal to need a bunch of people to hold someone down.
  - tmp538394722 6y ago
    > It's used as a treatment for drug overdoses ("excited delerium") which appears to be why it was used here. Why does it “appear” that way? Please edit your post rather than spreading misinformation.
    - Natsu 6y ago
      Those on the scene certainly thought this was the case, which is basically the only reason they use that drug in the first place in the context of an arrest. I don't claim to know one way or another whether they were right, but I would note that dying of a heart attack is inconsistent with ketamine as the cause. Maybe they gave him too much, but the article leaves one to conclude that this was somehow related to his death even though it never actually says so.
- kittiepryde 6y ago
  I did get this from Wikipedia, 'After McClain was restrained more officers arrived and audio of the conversation records them saying that McClain was "acting crazy", that he was "definitely on something", and that he had attacked them with "incredible, crazy strength" when they tried to restrain him.' They did not use the words, 'he was on drugs', but there is a strong implication based on the audio that this is what the police were claiming.
6y ago

jupp0r 6y ago

On the other hand: at least they are asking medical professionals instead of giving shots themselves.

peteradio 6y ago
You say that like its a positive. It would be much more straightforward to prosecute an officer injecting ketamine. The medical "professionals" are catspaws.
notagoodidea 6y ago
Because that would be blatantly illegal? Never stopped crappy police officiers to do crappy things but hey.
pessimizer 6y ago
Which is what would start happening if professional medical associations banned the practice.

ashtonkem 6y ago

The cops involved went back to where they killed Elijah McCain and posed for a group photo, reportedly re-enacting his death. This is the behavior I’d expect from a serial killer. Edit: they then distributed or showed this photo to the rest of the precinct. We know because a whistleblower notified the media. To my eye, this means that they expected the rest of the precinct to approve of this behavior, which is extremely alarming.

minitoar 6y ago
This shouldn’t be alarming. This is consistent with the behavior we’ve been seeing all year. This is status quo.
- antioink 6y ago
  It should be alarming - it's important not to get used to such abhorrent behavior, just because it's the status quo.
  - minitoar 6y ago
    I cannot maintain a state of alarm for years on end.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  The difference between our points is the subtle difference between alarm and surprise. I’d contend that one can be alarmed even if they’re not surprised; although even I am inclined to admit that this is pretty low value pedantry on my part.
obiye6657 6y ago
Daily reminder: THERE ARE NO GOOD COPS. Do not cooperate and do not trust them.
puranjay 6y ago
> The cops involved went back to where they killed Elijah McCain and posed for a group photo, reportedly re-enacting his death What compels someone to do that?

JshWright 6y ago

I work as a paramedic, and on occasion have to sedate folks. I have never (and will never) sedated someone at the request of the police. I can think of two occasions where the decision to sedate was a discussion between the cops and I (trying to come up with alternatives). It's also common for me to ask the police for assistance physically restraining someone in order to make the sedation process safer. That's as far as the involvement of the police should go. I agree 100% with your assessment of Elijah McCain's killing. That being said, sedation is an important tool, and often the safest course of action for a patient that would otherwise be a danger to themselves or others. A prolonged fight can be fatal for someone who is pushing their body further than it should go. It definitely has to be done correctly though, and given the number of cases where it was very clearly done incorrectly, I do think changes need to be made.

cmurf 6y ago

It's unquestionably a lynching. But this is what this perverted culture tolerates. Rather than the public participating in the lynching directly, it has hired professional lynchers.

antioink 6y ago
True, and I think there are lot of deniers of how the racist history of the US influences its racist present. The mindset that permits people to shrug off the killing of Elijah McClain, and assume he must have done something to deserve it, is the same that celebrated public lynchings.
- dang 6y ago
  Could you please not post in the flamewar style to HN? Especially not the ideological flamewar style? We're trying for something other than scorched earth here. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site to heart, we'd be grateful.
  - malcolmgreaves 6y ago
    They're being completely civil. This does not at all sound like an "ideological flame war." Racism in society isn't an ideologocal point. It's reality. They're pointing out facts that are uncomfortable. If the "spirit" of HN is truly about intellectual curiosity around things that relate to tech and entrepreneurship, then HN needs to embrace the fact that society ultimately rules over all -- most certainly tech and business. I fear that your comment here and re-direction to "the rules" is a censorship attempt because this is an uncomfortable thing go think about. Is HN a place where discussion about social problems that infect all of tech, business, and entrepreneurship not allowed? Is talking about racism "ideological"?
    - dang 6y ago
      Usually I'm responding to an account's recent history, not just one comment. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24253754 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24253754, for example, affects the priors. HN has been having lots of discussion about racism, just as the rest of society has been (or rather, societies, since many countries are represented here). If your question ("Is HN a place where discussion about social problems [is] not allowed") comes up, that can only be because of unfamiliarity with the history. If you want to get more familiar, HN Search is a great resource (see the box at the bottom of every page). The process of how we moderate political and ideological topics on HN is pretty stable by now. If you want to know what it is, check out the past explanations at https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=political%20overlap%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so.... There's a lot there; you could start with https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21607844 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21607844 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22902396 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22902396. People often feel like their most-important topic is under-represented or outright suppressed on HN. Even the most common topic feels "censored" to some people (see e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624962 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624962). This is an unfortunate consequence of frontpage space being the scarcest resource on HN: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20scarce&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que....

satokema_work 6y ago

Don't forget psych evaluations - with the implication that they should be found unfit for release. This one is a favorite of "cops" that don't actually have authority to arrest people or no probable cause for it.