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The author points to three reasons they can’t hire civilians: bureaucratic hiring process, preference for those with security clearance, and no dedicated recrui

The author points to three reasons they can’t hire civilians: bureaucratic hiring process, preference for those with security clearance, and no dedicated recruiting pipeline. They also mention the issue of salaries. To me, this does not even scratch the surface. I’m a manager and I regularly wear a t-shirt to work. At no point has anyone called me or have I called anyone “sir”. In fact, everyone just refers to everyone else by their first name, including interns addressing the CEO. Levels are hidden, and good ideas can come from anywhere. There’s no way the Pentagon is making that kind of cultural shift in my lifetime.

HenryKissinger 6y ago
I'm not sure that the perfect workplace environment, the culmination of thousands of years of human and civilizational history, is ... for people to wear t-shirts and calling one another by their first name. There is a time and place for everything, and one-size-fits-all models tend to work poorly when applied indiscriminately. The military is a highly codified organization based on cultural hierarchies going back centuries. A little formality has never prevented anyone from doing their job.
- kevinventullo 6y ago
  T-shirts and first names are symbolic of a culture that recognizes the need for a hierarchy but does not worship at its altar. The point is that if my manager says something which is utterly wrong, I can correct him in the moment and he’ll thank me for it. If I can’t do that, then yes it does prevent me from doing my job. For what it’s worth, I don’t mean to suggest the Pentagon should operate more like SV companies (I don’t really know). I’m just giving it as a reason I personally would not want to work there.
  - mantas 6y ago
    > T-shirts and first names are symbolic of a culture that recognizes the need for a hierarchy but does not worship at its altar Later part is definitely true. But I wouldn't be so sure about the first part. Plenty of people want to throw away any hierarchy out the window.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- coming4pensions 6y ago
  If you’re not in the military the codified formality isn’t your concern In capitalist system the only concern is acquiring capital. America pushed hard for that efficiency in thought. Now it has little thoughtful redundancy and resiliency to deal with the outcomes. Exceptional people full of grit staring at screens like Wall-E characters. Good grief, the epistemological objects people conjure to feel like their carrying on matters. Less polishing of grandpas storied history would provide the time necessary to write our own. But being a baby sitter of hand me downs is easier than self guided learning and development I guess. Whittling down a capital distribution engine to optimize extraction for a smaller cohort. America works hard at dismantling itself.
- Kednicma 6y ago
  Imagine that your boss orders you to commit a crime. The way which you and your boss normally communicate is going to effect the options which you can choose from for avoiding committing that crime. It is not an accident that the military is both the strictest and most regimented of hierarchies, and also commits the lion's share of war crimes; the hierarchies help enable war crimes by obscuring and diffusing ethical responsibility. Edit: As usual with such quick downvotes: Add your reply below. It's cowardly and unpatriotic to dodge criticism of our empire's blood-soaked military tradition.
stormdennis 6y ago
How horribly American. Bill may earn 1000 more than you do and can sack you on a whim but unlike in, say, Germany where you have less wage disparity and greater job security you don't have to address him by his title, nor he, you.
- jungturk 6y ago
  This is more a statement on the informality typical in many modern (US?) workplaces than a declaration of any hard-fought labor victory. Military, law enforcement, medical, and educational institutions still reinforce the ideas of titular address, but its fallen by the wayside in many places.
  - snapetom 6y ago
    "many places"? More like a total relic of the past. In my 20 year career, I've worked in all sorts of industries across corporate America including NY finance, insurance, politics, and medical and educational institutions as you list. I've never been in an environment where people addressed even the CEO as "Mr. xxxx." My last job was at a research hospital. Being old school, I always start introductions by addressing researchers and doctors as, "Dr. xxxx." Everyone insisted I call them by their first names, and a few outright told me they felt uncomfortable with me addressing them as "Dr. xxxx." One said, "Only psychopaths address people by their titles." I can see how titles still holds true for military and law enforcement, but I've never seen an institution where that even exists today. Probably because it's a huge red flag of insecurity if the head person requires it.
- snapetom 6y ago
  If you think Americans have to address superiors by their titles, you haven't interacted with Americans nor been inside an American workplace.
  - jjj123 6y ago
    I think you have it backwards. He’s saying Americans don’t have to address superiors by their titles and we act like that’s a victory when our workplaces are totalitarian in every other way.
threatofrain 6y ago
The Chinese armed forces can be similarly hierarchical but that doesn't obviously translate to an anti-technology curse. It would be problematic if the people who value technology were never promoted in Chinese leadership.
- natcombs 6y ago
  What if I told you there are successful Fortune 100 corporations in the US where executives don’t bring laptops/tech to meetings, but rather paper & pen (there are). Tech isn’t really relevant, it’s a medium, and there are many mediums
mcculley 6y ago
I used to be a T-shirt guy. I actively sabotaged any valuation people might make of me based on appearance to force evaluation only of my technical skills. That worked fine for a couple decades. Now I work hard to maximize the value of the connections I make and the overall value I can provide to others, which is not always entirely technical. I wear a suit and tie to all meetings now. I wear the same to every occasion when I am actually in an office and even sometimes over Zoom. It sets me apart and shows my interlocutor that I value the meeting and respect his or her time. It sets a tone and I find it is well worth the effort. Amusingly, I spent those first two decades working for the DoD and there is definitely a dress code and an aversion to wearing suits for some civilians.
- antpls 6y ago
  > It sets me apart and shows my interlocutor that I value the meeting and respect his or her time. That sentiment should come from your language and the content of your discussion, not from your appearance...
  - CapricornNoble 6y ago
    "A picture is worth a thousand words." The effort that an individual devotes to their appearance does communicate to certain audiences your attention to detail, discipline, etc... in ways that a silver tongue alone won't. We can argue over the accuracy/applicability of any conclusions drawn from that, but in certain domains/problem spaces appearance is a very relevant assessment tool in building trust.
KKKKkkkk1 6y ago
The whole point of the hierarchy is that it attracts people who climb hierarchies, and there are plenty of those. Plenty of people would like to be called sir, get credit for their subordinates' ideas, and literally wear their level on their sleeve.
panzagl 6y ago
The Pentagon is the top of the top- the C-level suites for 5-6 different corporations and their staffs. Actual acquisitions are handled by the services and distributed throughout various bases. There is much more civilian involvement at this level- usually there may only be one or two military or gov't employees involved in day-to-day design and technical decisions, and civilians usually have no problem telling them they're wrong, albeit probably in a more respectful manner than your usual group of codebros.
jancsika 6y ago
> Levels are hidden, and good ideas can come from anywhere. Am I correct inferring from this that the salaries of your colleagues/managers/etc. are not public knowledge?

HenryKissinger 6y ago

I'm not sure that the perfect workplace environment, the culmination of thousands of years of human and civilizational history, is ... for people to wear t-shirts and calling one another by their first name. There is a time and place for everything, and one-size-fits-all models tend to work poorly when applied indiscriminately. The military is a highly codified organization based on cultural hierarchies going back centuries. A little formality has never prevented anyone from doing their job.

kevinventullo 6y ago
T-shirts and first names are symbolic of a culture that recognizes the need for a hierarchy but does not worship at its altar. The point is that if my manager says something which is utterly wrong, I can correct him in the moment and he’ll thank me for it. If I can’t do that, then yes it does prevent me from doing my job. For what it’s worth, I don’t mean to suggest the Pentagon should operate more like SV companies (I don’t really know). I’m just giving it as a reason I personally would not want to work there.
- mantas 6y ago
  > T-shirts and first names are symbolic of a culture that recognizes the need for a hierarchy but does not worship at its altar Later part is definitely true. But I wouldn't be so sure about the first part. Plenty of people want to throw away any hierarchy out the window.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
coming4pensions 6y ago
If you’re not in the military the codified formality isn’t your concern In capitalist system the only concern is acquiring capital. America pushed hard for that efficiency in thought. Now it has little thoughtful redundancy and resiliency to deal with the outcomes. Exceptional people full of grit staring at screens like Wall-E characters. Good grief, the epistemological objects people conjure to feel like their carrying on matters. Less polishing of grandpas storied history would provide the time necessary to write our own. But being a baby sitter of hand me downs is easier than self guided learning and development I guess. Whittling down a capital distribution engine to optimize extraction for a smaller cohort. America works hard at dismantling itself.
Kednicma 6y ago
Imagine that your boss orders you to commit a crime. The way which you and your boss normally communicate is going to effect the options which you can choose from for avoiding committing that crime. It is not an accident that the military is both the strictest and most regimented of hierarchies, and also commits the lion's share of war crimes; the hierarchies help enable war crimes by obscuring and diffusing ethical responsibility. Edit: As usual with such quick downvotes: Add your reply below. It's cowardly and unpatriotic to dodge criticism of our empire's blood-soaked military tradition.

stormdennis 6y ago

How horribly American. Bill may earn 1000 more than you do and can sack you on a whim but unlike in, say, Germany where you have less wage disparity and greater job security you don't have to address him by his title, nor he, you.

jungturk 6y ago
This is more a statement on the informality typical in many modern (US?) workplaces than a declaration of any hard-fought labor victory. Military, law enforcement, medical, and educational institutions still reinforce the ideas of titular address, but its fallen by the wayside in many places.
- snapetom 6y ago
  "many places"? More like a total relic of the past. In my 20 year career, I've worked in all sorts of industries across corporate America including NY finance, insurance, politics, and medical and educational institutions as you list. I've never been in an environment where people addressed even the CEO as "Mr. xxxx." My last job was at a research hospital. Being old school, I always start introductions by addressing researchers and doctors as, "Dr. xxxx." Everyone insisted I call them by their first names, and a few outright told me they felt uncomfortable with me addressing them as "Dr. xxxx." One said, "Only psychopaths address people by their titles." I can see how titles still holds true for military and law enforcement, but I've never seen an institution where that even exists today. Probably because it's a huge red flag of insecurity if the head person requires it.
snapetom 6y ago
If you think Americans have to address superiors by their titles, you haven't interacted with Americans nor been inside an American workplace.
- jjj123 6y ago
  I think you have it backwards. He’s saying Americans don’t have to address superiors by their titles and we act like that’s a victory when our workplaces are totalitarian in every other way.

threatofrain 6y ago

The Chinese armed forces can be similarly hierarchical but that doesn't obviously translate to an anti-technology curse. It would be problematic if the people who value technology were never promoted in Chinese leadership.

natcombs 6y ago
What if I told you there are successful Fortune 100 corporations in the US where executives don’t bring laptops/tech to meetings, but rather paper & pen (there are). Tech isn’t really relevant, it’s a medium, and there are many mediums

mcculley 6y ago

I used to be a T-shirt guy. I actively sabotaged any valuation people might make of me based on appearance to force evaluation only of my technical skills. That worked fine for a couple decades. Now I work hard to maximize the value of the connections I make and the overall value I can provide to others, which is not always entirely technical. I wear a suit and tie to all meetings now. I wear the same to every occasion when I am actually in an office and even sometimes over Zoom. It sets me apart and shows my interlocutor that I value the meeting and respect his or her time. It sets a tone and I find it is well worth the effort. Amusingly, I spent those first two decades working for the DoD and there is definitely a dress code and an aversion to wearing suits for some civilians.

antpls 6y ago
> It sets me apart and shows my interlocutor that I value the meeting and respect his or her time. That sentiment should come from your language and the content of your discussion, not from your appearance...
- CapricornNoble 6y ago
  "A picture is worth a thousand words." The effort that an individual devotes to their appearance does communicate to certain audiences your attention to detail, discipline, etc... in ways that a silver tongue alone won't. We can argue over the accuracy/applicability of any conclusions drawn from that, but in certain domains/problem spaces appearance is a very relevant assessment tool in building trust.

KKKKkkkk1 6y ago

The whole point of the hierarchy is that it attracts people who climb hierarchies, and there are plenty of those. Plenty of people would like to be called sir, get credit for their subordinates' ideas, and literally wear their level on their sleeve.

panzagl 6y ago

The Pentagon is the top of the top- the C-level suites for 5-6 different corporations and their staffs. Actual acquisitions are handled by the services and distributed throughout various bases. There is much more civilian involvement at this level- usually there may only be one or two military or gov't employees involved in day-to-day design and technical decisions, and civilians usually have no problem telling them they're wrong, albeit probably in a more respectful manner than your usual group of codebros.

jancsika 6y ago

> Levels are hidden, and good ideas can come from anywhere. Am I correct inferring from this that the salaries of your colleagues/managers/etc. are not public knowledge?