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That's a straw man argument based on your assumption of second or third-order consequences. Edit: No politician anywhere ever introduced a bill with the intent

That's a straw man argument based on your assumption of second or third-order consequences. Edit: No politician anywhere ever introduced a bill with the intentions of "Incentivizing people not to work." Even "shutting down the economy" has the intention of being able to get back to 100% sooner and thus maximizing total output/GDP/work over a period longer than the short-sighted days/weeks immediately ahead.

luckylion 6y ago
The point is that pretending "conservatives just hate the poor" is the broad brush. The moral hazards of vast government social programs are the part that gets fuzzy and grey: it has great benefits in the moment, keeping people housed and fed. But it also has great disadvantages: making them lose their motivation and agency and making them permanently dependent on those programs. But if you zoom out and leave away the negatives: monsters!
- Falling3 6y ago
  Redlining, voter suppression, consistent attacks on important services (DMV, USPS, healthcare providers), drug testing for welfare recipients (despite the fact that these programs cost more than they save), anti-abortion crusades. There is a long list of evidence for conservative attacks on the poor in the US, which is in no way limited to programs like where the criticisms you mentioned apply - although I don't believe those criticisms are made in good faith to begin with anyway.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    It appears that you're not interested in the point I was trying to make, but just want to fight with somebody about your political convictions. I'm not that somebody, I don't care about your domestic problems. I care about the behavior you're showing though, because that unfortunately isn't contained to the US. "The other side are all monsters" is common, that's why it's a problem. But you must get over "... but they really are monsters" to be able to see the problem, I'm afraid.
    - Falling3 6y ago
      I responded to the point you tried to make; let's not pretend otherwise. I have a lot of problems with your analysis. Your original comment argued that conservative policies towards the poor are out of some concern for the future unintended consequences. I replied because we have mountains of evidence that is not the case. You then go on to straw man me with a false dichotomy that the Right's policies are either done out of some genuine altruism or that "they're monsters". We can acknowledge the reality of the situation without resorting to such ridiculous reductionism. And finally, I'm not looking for a fight about my political convictions. I'm correcting one more instance or a narrative that has plagued modern political discussions for decades. Both sides are not the same. And it's either ignorant or disingenuous to claim otherwise.
      - Lammy 6y ago
        > correcting I believe this is what they are trying to get at. No ill will intended, but it seems pretty futile to try to "correct" the way another person experiences the world since any viewpoint a correction comes from is inherently a property of observation at some place+time+culture. I think earlier societies' greater homogeneity tricked us all into thinking objective reality is a thing that exists.
- kingkawn 6y ago
  Sorry, conservatives do hate the poor. That’s an objective fact born out by their behavior, not my bias.

luckylion 6y ago

The point is that pretending "conservatives just hate the poor" is the broad brush. The moral hazards of vast government social programs are the part that gets fuzzy and grey: it has great benefits in the moment, keeping people housed and fed. But it also has great disadvantages: making them lose their motivation and agency and making them permanently dependent on those programs. But if you zoom out and leave away the negatives: monsters!

Falling3 6y ago
Redlining, voter suppression, consistent attacks on important services (DMV, USPS, healthcare providers), drug testing for welfare recipients (despite the fact that these programs cost more than they save), anti-abortion crusades. There is a long list of evidence for conservative attacks on the poor in the US, which is in no way limited to programs like where the criticisms you mentioned apply - although I don't believe those criticisms are made in good faith to begin with anyway.
- luckylion 6y ago
  It appears that you're not interested in the point I was trying to make, but just want to fight with somebody about your political convictions. I'm not that somebody, I don't care about your domestic problems. I care about the behavior you're showing though, because that unfortunately isn't contained to the US. "The other side are all monsters" is common, that's why it's a problem. But you must get over "... but they really are monsters" to be able to see the problem, I'm afraid.
  - Falling3 6y ago
    I responded to the point you tried to make; let's not pretend otherwise. I have a lot of problems with your analysis. Your original comment argued that conservative policies towards the poor are out of some concern for the future unintended consequences. I replied because we have mountains of evidence that is not the case. You then go on to straw man me with a false dichotomy that the Right's policies are either done out of some genuine altruism or that "they're monsters". We can acknowledge the reality of the situation without resorting to such ridiculous reductionism. And finally, I'm not looking for a fight about my political convictions. I'm correcting one more instance or a narrative that has plagued modern political discussions for decades. Both sides are not the same. And it's either ignorant or disingenuous to claim otherwise.
    - Lammy 6y ago
      > correcting I believe this is what they are trying to get at. No ill will intended, but it seems pretty futile to try to "correct" the way another person experiences the world since any viewpoint a correction comes from is inherently a property of observation at some place+time+culture. I think earlier societies' greater homogeneity tricked us all into thinking objective reality is a thing that exists.
kingkawn 6y ago
Sorry, conservatives do hate the poor. That’s an objective fact born out by their behavior, not my bias.