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A lot of small businesses in Europe and the Middle East don’t accept Amex, due to the transaction fees. I understand that they’re interested in maintaining a lu

A lot of small businesses in Europe and the Middle East don’t accept Amex, due to the transaction fees. I understand that they’re interested in maintaining a luxurious image, but it just means I drive my finances elsewhere with these businesses by using MasterCard. I hope they will increase the card’s outreach

chrisseaton 6y ago
> I understand that they’re interested in maintaining a luxurious image They give you a lot of value back compared to other cards I've tried in Europe. I don't know it's something as flippant as 'luxurious image' - people use them because when they are accepted and you're buying something expensive like corporate flights and hotels, you can earn an a significant amount of value back. I flew transatlantic first-class a few times completely free on my AmEx. My Visas give me so little I don't even bother checking what the current total is. It's free money to you (the actual cost is amortised across all consumers and it's there if you use you card or not) so might as well take as much as they'll give you.
- rco8786 6y ago
  OP is talking about merchant fees. Amex is the most expensive card for merchants to accept.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    Yes that's what I'm talking about as well. Merchants don't accept them because of their high merchant fees, but AmEx don't have high merchant fees for some flippant reason like to create a 'luxurious image' - they do it to create value for their card holders.
    - bhupy 6y ago
      “Free money” paid for by merchants is a luxury, not a necessity.
      - chrisseaton 6y ago
        The consumers overall cover the costs - the merchants don’t just eat the cost.
        bhupy 6y ago
        Yup, point remains. It’s an externality masquerading as a luxury. It’s also arguably regressive, since the beneficiaries of those rewards tend to be overwhelmingly rich, while the inflated prices are paid for by everybody else.
        rvnx 6y ago
        It seems like a cashback card then
        bhupy 6y ago
        Yup, point remains. Cash back cards maintain the same characteristics. Traditional cash back cards are arguably less regressive since it isn’t just the wealthy that have cash back cards. In theory, a broader set of people are beneficiaries of a system that a broad set of consumers pay into via higher prices. AmEx cards OTOH are expensive enough to process that there still exists a broad set of merchants who refuse to process them. For those that do process them, it’s harder to say to what degree the costs are passed on to all buyers. And unlike cashback cards, Amex rewards beneficiaries heavily skew rich.
    - chinathrow 6y ago
      This makes me sad. Card companies create value buy increasing prices to buy the card holders loyalty. I understand that this works but I think it is a form of corruption. Buying your customers loyalty rsp spending...
      - wsc981 6y ago
        I am not sure how well this strategy will work out in the long run. Personally I look forward to replace my Amex card with Apple’s card, once available for me. Here in Thailand many shops, hotels don’t accept Amex, so it’s harder to save up points for benefits, effectively reducing the value of the card.
    - paulcole 6y ago
      Nearly every Amex has an annual fee for the card holder. Some are quite substantial. There had better be value.
  - vmception 6y ago
    which hasn't been true for some time
    - rco8786 6y ago
      ? Source for that?
- the-dude 6y ago
  The whole idea that a particular card gives you monetary value is completely foreign to most Europeans I know ( I am European myself ). The only value perceived is the ability to pay in the first place. From the perspective in NL, with its ubiquitous PIN and iDeal system ( online PIN ), it seems like a totally unnecessary tax on economic transactions. The rates are not comparable ( a couple to maybe 20 cents per transaction ).
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    > The only value perceived is the ability to pay in the first place. Right I get that with my (European) AmEx almost all the time... plus free (amortised) first-class flights. Why would a rational person turn that down? I already need to carry a backup card for emergencies so it’s no extra burden.
    - the-dude 6y ago
      I think there is a couple reasons why creditcards are not popular in Europe. They don't like buying on credit ( even less so in DE vs NL I guess ). The cards only got widespread in the 90s. We have our own systems. If I had a physical shop, I would probably decline AmEx purchases. In the shops which do accept them, expect them to hate you for it. I happen to travel very little and know almost all shopkeepers who I buy groceries from / shop with ( including at my supermarket ). I get more value from being loved. edit: Now I think about it, a history with severe inflation might have to do something with the EU attitude too.
      - chrisseaton 6y ago
        In a society with severe inflation surely the very last thing you want to be holding is cash in your literal pocket like Germans do?
        the-dude 6y ago
        If you are an individualist maybe you are right. I think the Germans are more aware of the Tragedy of the Commons. Personally I do not like the hyper-individualist, credit-laden neoliberal economic system which is slowly creeping into the EU. Targetting the individual with ever more convenience and more-for-less. Finally, cash is untraceable and therefore of vital importance to me and free societies.
cfors 6y ago
> due to the transaction fees. This is actually a misconception. Amex has been competitive with Visa/Master for the past couple years, but haven't been able to shake off the stigma that the processing fees are more expensive, since it is up to the actual business to accept Amex. > But in 2018, Mastercard and Visa credit had a swipe fee weighted average of 2.26%, while AmEx had 2.3%, additional data from The Nilson Report found. [0] [0] https://www.retaildive.com/news/american-express-catches-up-to-visa-mastercard-in-acceptance/571168/ https://www.retaildive.com/news/american-express-catches-up-... In the past Amex has been prohibitively expensive to accept, and relied on their status as a luxury brand to get people to accept them. I think the playing field is starting to reach an equilibrium across payment network providers.
vmception 6y ago
Over the last 5 years I have had the same acceptance rate of AMEX in Europe and I've had in the US. As in, the same distribution of restaurants accept them, or more obviously the same distribution of places that told me they didn't accept it. Its not a quantitative analysis, but one user experience. I am aware AMEX did a big push for more acceptance, my point is that I think it worked, and public perception is just lagging behind.
- zymhan 6y ago
  It's been so long since I couldn't use an Amex. Even small rural gas stations take it.
ValentineC 6y ago
Australia, too. I was surprised at how many cafes put up "no Amex" signs when I was there late last year.
cactus2093 6y ago
Even in the US you'll still often find places where it's not accepted. Now that Chase offers an equivalent high annual fee, high rewards luxury card as Amex but it's on the Visa network, I don't see why anyone still uses Amex.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- axaxs 6y ago
  Amex fan here. Their support is top notch, and their suite of cards gives me best typical rewards. 4x on grocery/restaurant, 5x on travel, etc. And those cash out at 1.25, so it's really more like 6x on grocery.

chrisseaton 6y ago

> I understand that they’re interested in maintaining a luxurious image They give you a lot of value back compared to other cards I've tried in Europe. I don't know it's something as flippant as 'luxurious image' - people use them because when they are accepted and you're buying something expensive like corporate flights and hotels, you can earn an a significant amount of value back. I flew transatlantic first-class a few times completely free on my AmEx. My Visas give me so little I don't even bother checking what the current total is. It's free money to you (the actual cost is amortised across all consumers and it's there if you use you card or not) so might as well take as much as they'll give you.

rco8786 6y ago
OP is talking about merchant fees. Amex is the most expensive card for merchants to accept.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  Yes that's what I'm talking about as well. Merchants don't accept them because of their high merchant fees, but AmEx don't have high merchant fees for some flippant reason like to create a 'luxurious image' - they do it to create value for their card holders.
  - bhupy 6y ago
    “Free money” paid for by merchants is a luxury, not a necessity.
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      The consumers overall cover the costs - the merchants don’t just eat the cost.
      - bhupy 6y ago
        Yup, point remains. It’s an externality masquerading as a luxury. It’s also arguably regressive, since the beneficiaries of those rewards tend to be overwhelmingly rich, while the inflated prices are paid for by everybody else.
        rvnx 6y ago
        It seems like a cashback card then
        bhupy 6y ago
        Yup, point remains. Cash back cards maintain the same characteristics. Traditional cash back cards are arguably less regressive since it isn’t just the wealthy that have cash back cards. In theory, a broader set of people are beneficiaries of a system that a broad set of consumers pay into via higher prices. AmEx cards OTOH are expensive enough to process that there still exists a broad set of merchants who refuse to process them. For those that do process them, it’s harder to say to what degree the costs are passed on to all buyers. And unlike cashback cards, Amex rewards beneficiaries heavily skew rich.
  - chinathrow 6y ago
    This makes me sad. Card companies create value buy increasing prices to buy the card holders loyalty. I understand that this works but I think it is a form of corruption. Buying your customers loyalty rsp spending...
    - wsc981 6y ago
      I am not sure how well this strategy will work out in the long run. Personally I look forward to replace my Amex card with Apple’s card, once available for me. Here in Thailand many shops, hotels don’t accept Amex, so it’s harder to save up points for benefits, effectively reducing the value of the card.
  - paulcole 6y ago
    Nearly every Amex has an annual fee for the card holder. Some are quite substantial. There had better be value.
- vmception 6y ago
  which hasn't been true for some time
  - rco8786 6y ago
    ? Source for that?
the-dude 6y ago
The whole idea that a particular card gives you monetary value is completely foreign to most Europeans I know ( I am European myself ). The only value perceived is the ability to pay in the first place. From the perspective in NL, with its ubiquitous PIN and iDeal system ( online PIN ), it seems like a totally unnecessary tax on economic transactions. The rates are not comparable ( a couple to maybe 20 cents per transaction ).
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > The only value perceived is the ability to pay in the first place. Right I get that with my (European) AmEx almost all the time... plus free (amortised) first-class flights. Why would a rational person turn that down? I already need to carry a backup card for emergencies so it’s no extra burden.
  - the-dude 6y ago
    I think there is a couple reasons why creditcards are not popular in Europe. They don't like buying on credit ( even less so in DE vs NL I guess ). The cards only got widespread in the 90s. We have our own systems. If I had a physical shop, I would probably decline AmEx purchases. In the shops which do accept them, expect them to hate you for it. I happen to travel very little and know almost all shopkeepers who I buy groceries from / shop with ( including at my supermarket ). I get more value from being loved. edit: Now I think about it, a history with severe inflation might have to do something with the EU attitude too.
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      In a society with severe inflation surely the very last thing you want to be holding is cash in your literal pocket like Germans do?
      - the-dude 6y ago
        If you are an individualist maybe you are right. I think the Germans are more aware of the Tragedy of the Commons. Personally I do not like the hyper-individualist, credit-laden neoliberal economic system which is slowly creeping into the EU. Targetting the individual with ever more convenience and more-for-less. Finally, cash is untraceable and therefore of vital importance to me and free societies.

cfors 6y ago

> due to the transaction fees. This is actually a misconception. Amex has been competitive with Visa/Master for the past couple years, but haven't been able to shake off the stigma that the processing fees are more expensive, since it is up to the actual business to accept Amex. > But in 2018, Mastercard and Visa credit had a swipe fee weighted average of 2.26%, while AmEx had 2.3%, additional data from The Nilson Report found. [0] [0] https://www.retaildive.com/news/american-express-catches-up-to-visa-mastercard-in-acceptance/571168/ https://www.retaildive.com/news/american-express-catches-up-... In the past Amex has been prohibitively expensive to accept, and relied on their status as a luxury brand to get people to accept them. I think the playing field is starting to reach an equilibrium across payment network providers.

vmception 6y ago

Over the last 5 years I have had the same acceptance rate of AMEX in Europe and I've had in the US. As in, the same distribution of restaurants accept them, or more obviously the same distribution of places that told me they didn't accept it. Its not a quantitative analysis, but one user experience. I am aware AMEX did a big push for more acceptance, my point is that I think it worked, and public perception is just lagging behind.

zymhan 6y ago
It's been so long since I couldn't use an Amex. Even small rural gas stations take it.

ValentineC 6y ago

Australia, too. I was surprised at how many cafes put up "no Amex" signs when I was there late last year.

cactus2093 6y ago

Even in the US you'll still often find places where it's not accepted. Now that Chase offers an equivalent high annual fee, high rewards luxury card as Amex but it's on the Visa network, I don't see why anyone still uses Amex.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
axaxs 6y ago
Amex fan here. Their support is top notch, and their suite of cards gives me best typical rewards. 4x on grocery/restaurant, 5x on travel, etc. And those cash out at 1.25, so it's really more like 6x on grocery.