6 ms·

The presumption that there is a possible unbiased perspective is itself the most insidious form of bias.

hleszek 6y ago
The presumption that there are always multiple perspectives and that they might be equally valid can be another bias. Especially in the news. Sometimes one party is clearly right and the other is clearly wrong.
- luckylion 6y ago
  That's very rare though. Usually, the impression is achieved by intentionally leaving out facts to make the picture look more clear cut. Once you go into the details, in most cases, clarity goes away and everything gets fuzzy and grey. But nobody wants to read "it's complicated, here are some facts so you can figure out your thoughts on the matter", so we tend to cut away half and paint the rest in broad strokes to turn that into "This is reality, and here are the monsters who deny it".
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - BrianOnHN 6y ago
    I'd love to hear these "details" that paint conservative-trump supporters and their quack-anon conspiracies as anything other than monsters.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      Incentivizing people not to work leads to people not working.
      - BrianOnHN 6y ago
        That's a straw man argument based on your assumption of second or third-order consequences. Edit: No politician anywhere ever introduced a bill with the intentions of "Incentivizing people not to work." Even "shutting down the economy" has the intention of being able to get back to 100% sooner and thus maximizing total output/GDP/work over a period longer than the short-sighted days/weeks immediately ahead.
        luckylion 6y ago
        The point is that pretending "conservatives just hate the poor" is the broad brush. The moral hazards of vast government social programs are the part that gets fuzzy and grey: it has great benefits in the moment, keeping people housed and fed. But it also has great disadvantages: making them lose their motivation and agency and making them permanently dependent on those programs. But if you zoom out and leave away the negatives: monsters!
        Falling3 6y ago
        Redlining, voter suppression, consistent attacks on important services (DMV, USPS, healthcare providers), drug testing for welfare recipients (despite the fact that these programs cost more than they save), anti-abortion crusades. There is a long list of evidence for conservative attacks on the poor in the US, which is in no way limited to programs like where the criticisms you mentioned apply - although I don't believe those criticisms are made in good faith to begin with anyway.
        luckylion 6y ago
        It appears that you're not interested in the point I was trying to make, but just want to fight with somebody about your political convictions. I'm not that somebody, I don't care about your domestic problems. I care about the behavior you're showing though, because that unfortunately isn't contained to the US. "The other side are all monsters" is common, that's why it's a problem. But you must get over "... but they really are monsters" to be able to see the problem, I'm afraid.
    - aeneasmackenzie 6y ago
      And I'd love to hear these details that paint the antihuman communists at the DNC as anything other than monsters.
- kingkawn 6y ago
  I said nothing of equal validity, that’s a straw man. I am saying that the Objective position is not real, and better to assess the subjectivity for its usefulness for a given problem.
cringepirate 6y ago
Not at all. When people normally talk about a unbiased perspective they are talking about objectively presenting, discussing or evaluating a given topic (within the realms of what is possible). Saying it is impossible (which I think is tenuous at best, but I for the purposes of argument I will concede it) is not seeing the wood for the trees. As long as people are trying to be objective (even if they fail) it is much better than just giving up and just not even attempting. Many people seems to think of things in terms of absolutes. Just because you cannot being completely objective it doesn't mean that one shouldn't try.
- mellow2020 6y ago
  Nobody said you shouldn't try. But part of that is calling out those who talk of being "unbiased" or "objective" not as a shorthand, but as something they seen think is actually within their possession. > It is not the greatest of modern scientists who feel most sure that the object, stripped of its qualitative properties and reduced to mere quantity, is wholly real. Little scientists, and little unscientific followers of science, may think so. The great minds know very well that the object, so treated, is an artificial abstraction, that something of its reality has been lost. -- C.S. Lewis > We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning. -- Werner Heisenberg
  - cringepirate 6y ago
    > Nobody said you shouldn't try. Actually a lot of people do say exactly that. I've heard it quite often both online and in my personal life.
    - mellow2020 6y ago
      Sure, but that has nothing to do with the comment it was in response to, which does in fact not say that.
      - cringepirate 6y ago
oblio 6y ago
1. It should at least be something to strive for. 2. Some biases are more harmful than others.
- kingkawn 6y ago
  1. If it is an inherent falsehood then striving for it will render its outcomes false. 2. Some ideas, some people, some foods, some air, some planets, some shoes, some economists, some...

The presumption that there are always multiple perspectives and that they might be equally valid can be another bias. Especially in the news. Sometimes one party is clearly right and the other is clearly wrong.

luckylion 6y ago
That's very rare though. Usually, the impression is achieved by intentionally leaving out facts to make the picture look more clear cut. Once you go into the details, in most cases, clarity goes away and everything gets fuzzy and grey. But nobody wants to read "it's complicated, here are some facts so you can figure out your thoughts on the matter", so we tend to cut away half and paint the rest in broad strokes to turn that into "This is reality, and here are the monsters who deny it".
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- BrianOnHN 6y ago
  I'd love to hear these "details" that paint conservative-trump supporters and their quack-anon conspiracies as anything other than monsters.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    Incentivizing people not to work leads to people not working.
    - BrianOnHN 6y ago
      That's a straw man argument based on your assumption of second or third-order consequences. Edit: No politician anywhere ever introduced a bill with the intentions of "Incentivizing people not to work." Even "shutting down the economy" has the intention of being able to get back to 100% sooner and thus maximizing total output/GDP/work over a period longer than the short-sighted days/weeks immediately ahead.
      - luckylion 6y ago
        The point is that pretending "conservatives just hate the poor" is the broad brush. The moral hazards of vast government social programs are the part that gets fuzzy and grey: it has great benefits in the moment, keeping people housed and fed. But it also has great disadvantages: making them lose their motivation and agency and making them permanently dependent on those programs. But if you zoom out and leave away the negatives: monsters!
        Falling3 6y ago
        Redlining, voter suppression, consistent attacks on important services (DMV, USPS, healthcare providers), drug testing for welfare recipients (despite the fact that these programs cost more than they save), anti-abortion crusades. There is a long list of evidence for conservative attacks on the poor in the US, which is in no way limited to programs like where the criticisms you mentioned apply - although I don't believe those criticisms are made in good faith to begin with anyway.
        luckylion 6y ago
        It appears that you're not interested in the point I was trying to make, but just want to fight with somebody about your political convictions. I'm not that somebody, I don't care about your domestic problems. I care about the behavior you're showing though, because that unfortunately isn't contained to the US. "The other side are all monsters" is common, that's why it's a problem. But you must get over "... but they really are monsters" to be able to see the problem, I'm afraid.
  - aeneasmackenzie 6y ago
    And I'd love to hear these details that paint the antihuman communists at the DNC as anything other than monsters.
kingkawn 6y ago
I said nothing of equal validity, that’s a straw man. I am saying that the Objective position is not real, and better to assess the subjectivity for its usefulness for a given problem.

cringepirate 6y ago

Not at all. When people normally talk about a unbiased perspective they are talking about objectively presenting, discussing or evaluating a given topic (within the realms of what is possible). Saying it is impossible (which I think is tenuous at best, but I for the purposes of argument I will concede it) is not seeing the wood for the trees. As long as people are trying to be objective (even if they fail) it is much better than just giving up and just not even attempting. Many people seems to think of things in terms of absolutes. Just because you cannot being completely objective it doesn't mean that one shouldn't try.

mellow2020 6y ago
Nobody said you shouldn't try. But part of that is calling out those who talk of being "unbiased" or "objective" not as a shorthand, but as something they seen think is actually within their possession. > It is not the greatest of modern scientists who feel most sure that the object, stripped of its qualitative properties and reduced to mere quantity, is wholly real. Little scientists, and little unscientific followers of science, may think so. The great minds know very well that the object, so treated, is an artificial abstraction, that something of its reality has been lost. -- C.S. Lewis > We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning. -- Werner Heisenberg
- cringepirate 6y ago
  > Nobody said you shouldn't try. Actually a lot of people do say exactly that. I've heard it quite often both online and in my personal life.
  - mellow2020 6y ago
    Sure, but that has nothing to do with the comment it was in response to, which does in fact not say that.
    - cringepirate 6y ago

oblio 6y ago

1. It should at least be something to strive for. 2. Some biases are more harmful than others.

kingkawn 6y ago
1. If it is an inherent falsehood then striving for it will render its outcomes false. 2. Some ideas, some people, some foods, some air, some planets, some shoes, some economists, some...