5 ms·

> and is a self-applied label Is it though? You sometimes see people in the "woke" crowd call someone an incel without them self-identifying as one.

JohnBooty 6y ago
Yes, you do see that. The etymology here is muddled... as etymology almost always is. It's also pretty interesting. The Wikipedia article has a really (surprisingly) good rundown on the history of the term: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel So, yes, it was originally a term of self-identification dating all the way back to the 1990s. Usage as an insult began after self-identified incels began making headlines by murdering people. After that, "incel" became shorthand for men who were bitter, alienated, misogynistic, and potentially violent. A very similar thing happened in the 1990s, after a string of workplace killings by postal workers in the U.S. -- the phrase "going postal" entered the vernacular for a time. When "incel" is used as an insult like this, I don't believe it is ever meant as a literal reference to the subject's sexual activity or lack thereof; only as a reference to their bitter attitude.
- dependenttypes 6y ago
  The same holds true for the words "nigger" and "faggot" however, yet somehow both of these are bad but "incel" is okay.
- dependenttypes 6y ago
  The same holds true for the words [censored] and [censored] however, yet somehow both of these are bad but "incel" is okay. I had to repost it because https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24250085 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24250085 does not appear when viewing it outside of my account.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    Those two are used by the far right, while this one is used by the (far) left. Much like folks on imgur will unironically call for lynchings of right wing idiots who did some heinous stuff but will be outraged if some right wing forum calls for the same of left wing idiots who did some heinous stuff. Controlling slurs (and even more so: pretending that a slur that you use as a slur isn't a slur) is a tactical maneuver on the rhetorical battle field. A common argument is "but this is given based on behavior". It's a bad argument, because the same is true for most usages of any slur.
    - JohnBooty 6y ago
      - One is a slur based strictly on the color of one's skin - One is a slur based on one's sexual preferences - One is a slur based on a self-applied label some have chosen for themselves and represents (and I am phrasing this as neutrally as possible) a very specific set of beliefs Which one of these is not like the others?
      - privacy_bodger 6y ago
        All three words are generally considered OK when used by people in those communities, and generally considered as slurs when used by people who are not.
        JohnBooty 6y ago
        Yeah. Additionally, all three terms have consonants and vowels! The more we look, the more similar they get. You've badly missed the point. Intrinsic properties like a person's skin color are not even remotely comparable to an misogynistic ideology they have chosen. To do so is to embarrass yourself and convince nobody.
        dependenttypes 6y ago
        You've badly missed the point. "properties like whether someone is a virgin or not are not even remotely comparable to the behaviour which they have chosen. To do so is to embarrass yourself and convince nobody."
  - teddyh 6y ago
    There’s an auto-censoring mechanism on HN which is triggered by certain words: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23259073#23269284 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23259073#23269284
  - JohnBooty 6y ago
    That is a shockingly poor comparison, defying all logic. "Incel" was a term of self-identification chosen by a subculture of people and refers to a specific set of beliefs they subscribe to. It is not even remotely equivalent to the slurs you mentioned in your original comment. One of those slurs is based on the color of one's skin. Another one is based on one's sexual orientation. (I can see your original post because I have "showdead" turned on in my HN prefs)
    - dependenttypes 6y ago
      > "Incel" was a term of self-identification chosen by a subculture of people and refers to a specific set of beliefs they subscribe to. And [censored] was originally a unit of measurement, while a variant of [censored] is commonly used between members of the african-american community to self-identify/refer to each other. Regardless, we are talking about the use of incel to refer to someone who does not identify as part of said community. > One of those slurs is based on the color of one's skin. Another one is based on one's sexual orientation. And the other is based on whether they are virgins or not.

JohnBooty 6y ago

Yes, you do see that. The etymology here is muddled... as etymology almost always is. It's also pretty interesting. The Wikipedia article has a really (surprisingly) good rundown on the history of the term: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel So, yes, it was originally a term of self-identification dating all the way back to the 1990s. Usage as an insult began after self-identified incels began making headlines by murdering people. After that, "incel" became shorthand for men who were bitter, alienated, misogynistic, and potentially violent. A very similar thing happened in the 1990s, after a string of workplace killings by postal workers in the U.S. -- the phrase "going postal" entered the vernacular for a time. When "incel" is used as an insult like this, I don't believe it is ever meant as a literal reference to the subject's sexual activity or lack thereof; only as a reference to their bitter attitude.

dependenttypes 6y ago
The same holds true for the words "nigger" and "faggot" however, yet somehow both of these are bad but "incel" is okay.
dependenttypes 6y ago
The same holds true for the words [censored] and [censored] however, yet somehow both of these are bad but "incel" is okay. I had to repost it because https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24250085 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24250085 does not appear when viewing it outside of my account.
- luckylion 6y ago
  Those two are used by the far right, while this one is used by the (far) left. Much like folks on imgur will unironically call for lynchings of right wing idiots who did some heinous stuff but will be outraged if some right wing forum calls for the same of left wing idiots who did some heinous stuff. Controlling slurs (and even more so: pretending that a slur that you use as a slur isn't a slur) is a tactical maneuver on the rhetorical battle field. A common argument is "but this is given based on behavior". It's a bad argument, because the same is true for most usages of any slur.
  - JohnBooty 6y ago
    - One is a slur based strictly on the color of one's skin - One is a slur based on one's sexual preferences - One is a slur based on a self-applied label some have chosen for themselves and represents (and I am phrasing this as neutrally as possible) a very specific set of beliefs Which one of these is not like the others?
    - privacy_bodger 6y ago
      All three words are generally considered OK when used by people in those communities, and generally considered as slurs when used by people who are not.
      - JohnBooty 6y ago
        Yeah. Additionally, all three terms have consonants and vowels! The more we look, the more similar they get. You've badly missed the point. Intrinsic properties like a person's skin color are not even remotely comparable to an misogynistic ideology they have chosen. To do so is to embarrass yourself and convince nobody.
        dependenttypes 6y ago
        You've badly missed the point. "properties like whether someone is a virgin or not are not even remotely comparable to the behaviour which they have chosen. To do so is to embarrass yourself and convince nobody."
- teddyh 6y ago
  There’s an auto-censoring mechanism on HN which is triggered by certain words: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23259073#23269284 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23259073#23269284
- JohnBooty 6y ago
  That is a shockingly poor comparison, defying all logic. "Incel" was a term of self-identification chosen by a subculture of people and refers to a specific set of beliefs they subscribe to. It is not even remotely equivalent to the slurs you mentioned in your original comment. One of those slurs is based on the color of one's skin. Another one is based on one's sexual orientation. (I can see your original post because I have "showdead" turned on in my HN prefs)
  - dependenttypes 6y ago
    > "Incel" was a term of self-identification chosen by a subculture of people and refers to a specific set of beliefs they subscribe to. And [censored] was originally a unit of measurement, while a variant of [censored] is commonly used between members of the african-american community to self-identify/refer to each other. Regardless, we are talking about the use of incel to refer to someone who does not identify as part of said community. > One of those slurs is based on the color of one's skin. Another one is based on one's sexual orientation. And the other is based on whether they are virgins or not.