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I dislocated my ankle rock climbing a few years ago and had to be taken to the hospital. After a few doses of morphine had zero noticeable impact on my pain, th

I dislocated my ankle rock climbing a few years ago and had to be taken to the hospital. After a few doses of morphine had zero noticeable impact on my pain, they gave me ketamine so I couldn't feel the pain of the reduction (aka pulling my foot out and moving it back into place). The ketamine experience was far worse than my fall and any subsequent pain I experienced, and I would gladly take the pain of the reduction over the ketamine any day. It basically felt like I was dying and there was nothing I could do to stop it. Think of the hypnosis scene from "Get Out" where you can feel your consciousness slipping away but you're not asleep either. I could hear everything happening around me but couldn't move a muscle or feel anything. My perception of time went out the window and it felt like I was in an empty void for an eternity when it was only a few minutes. I thought I couldn't talk because I couldn't feel my mouth or move any other muscles, but realized I was actually speaking my thoughts after I heard a friend in the room responded to something I thought in my mind. Overall, 0/10 would not do it again and the thought that police use it to pacify someone during an arrest is sickening.

elevenoh 6y ago
Damn. This has me wonder: had you ever done a psychedelic prior to this? I had ketamine during wakeful surgery. Loved it. Grateful it was available. But I had prev. experience w/ psychedelics & had learned/practiced how to: let go, place attention on what's positive & cease to have expectations.
- Trasmatta 6y ago
  I imagine there's also got to be a difference between getting it for a planned surgery that you can prepare for, vs having it thrust on you suddenly during a traumatic and painful experience. Kind of hard to let go in that situation.
  - bjo590 6y ago
    An arrest sound like one of the worst set and settings to get dosed with ketamine. The person being arrested might not know what they were injected with. The person might not trust the police. The person is being detained against their will.
  - zwirbl 6y ago
    And several doses of morphine usually have at least some effect on the body/mind
    - enimodas 6y ago
      Some people are immune, or almost immune: https://partner.sciencenorway.no/forskningno-norway-ntnu/genetic-defect-makes-some-nearly-immune-to-morphine/1436463 https://partner.sciencenorway.no/forskningno-norway-ntnu/gen...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- DevoidSimo 6y ago
  As other people have said, preparation is a big part of enjoying it. Any hallucinogens without knowing what to expect would be scary.
- Dumblydorr 6y ago
  Regarding place attention on the positive: Check out Sam Harris interview with Francoise Bourzat. She goes into depth about so called negative trips and feels they are just as important and useful as positive ones. I'm not sure I can summarize why, but she suggested that even negative experiences can be mindfully approached and handled well.
Trasmatta 6y ago
> My perception of time went out the window and it felt like I was in an empty void for an eternity when it was only a few minutes. This was my exact experience with disossiatives as well. I think they can be effectively and safely used, but there's a real danger there. Disossiatives like ketamine and DXM are incredibly powerful. After my experience in that same eternal void I struggled with a fear that what I'd experienced was the natural state of consciousness, and what would happen to me for eternity after I died. I didn't actually believe it, but the fear was still there and talk. Took a few months for it to wear off.
throw32890 6y ago
So you were semi-conscious, could communicate, but could not move. I am afraid that is excellent drug to pacify someone. If we defund police and add more women in police force, we will see much wider use.
- RantyDave 6y ago
  Unfortunately it turns out the police can't read instructions and have a tendency to put far too much in. It's almost like people who administer drugs need some kind of training...
  - miked85 6y ago
    > It's almost like people who administer drugs need some kind of training You mean like paramedics? The article states that paramedics administer the drug.
nerdbaggy 6y ago
Sounds terrible. In a recent surgery in pre op they gave me Versed/Midazolam. I was so spacey it was weird and kinda scary. I can’t imagine what ketamine would be like
- throwanem 6y ago
  Versed is pretty wild, even at preinduction doses. You can learn to be OK with it, but it was a little scary for me too, the first time I had a procedure that involved it. That procedure also most likely involved ketamine - I don't know for sure, it was a long time ago and nobody told me the names of anything but the Versed and that only because I asked, but I had totally uncharacteristic recurring nightmares and emotional problems for the next little while afterward. When all of that came back up during planning for the surgery I had to have last year, my surgeon noted that that sounded in his experience like ketamine side effects, and that this time I'd be getting propofol, which is not at all a dissociative, instead. And, sure enough, I was just fine after that surgery, despite it being much more invasive and thus painful in its aftereffects. Based on that, I'll echo what others here have already said: the thought of being given a surprise high dose of ketamine, in the context of a situation that also involves the use of violence against one's person, is horrifying, and complex PTSD is the least severe consequence I can imagine.
smabie 6y ago
Are you experienced with drugs? Because most of my friends think ketamine is one the greatest drugs you can do. It would have probably a lot more fun if you were in a comfortable place, like your house, hanging out with your gf or something. Some of the most chill and relaxed moments of my entire life have been on ketamine. I only do it occasionally because of the nasty chronic side-effects, though.
- geofft 6y ago
  Do your friends generally take drugs involuntarily and without informed awareness of the effects and without a trusted trip sitter the first time they do something new and with associated negative circumstances (like a broken bone or an arrest)?
  - aaron_m04 6y ago
    That's GP's point I think: the context of the experience makes all the difference.
    - geofft 6y ago
      Ah, the comment was edited after I replied, oops. Yes. (Though I don't believe whether it's enjoyable in the right setting has much to do with whether cops should be using it. I get that this is a defense of ketamine as a recreational drug, but e.g. alcohol would probably be un-fun if the first time you experienced it was at a high dose during either surgery or an arrest, and that one's widely accepted as a reasonable recreational drug.)
- ladberg 6y ago
  Nope, not experienced and don't plan to be. I totally believe it could be a nice experience in a different setting, but I doubt that experiencing it in the hospital or mid-arrest would ever be enjoyable.
mr_spothawk 6y ago
SWIM is a tremendous fan of injected ketamine > Think of the hypnosis scene from "Get Out" this is EXACTLY right. > an empty void for an eternity when it was only a few minutes. if you maintained the ability to interpret audio and visual inputs, then probably 20-30 minutes, if SWIM had to guess. > the thought that police use it to pacify someone during an arrest is sickening. this is EXACTLY right. reminds me of the psychonaught/rapist sex therapist guy who was mega-dosing women with MDMA or 2CB before forcing himself on them.
- ladberg 6y ago
  Yep, I think the empty void feeling was only a few minutes and after that ended it took like 20-30 minutes to be able to open my eyes and regain motor control.
- 1_player 6y ago
  FYI, SWIM means Somebody Who Isn't Me, which is often used on psychedelic enthusiast forums.
ajkdhcb2 6y ago
I had almost exactly the same response the first time I took ketamine. This is despite being experienced with psychedelics (all extremely positive lifechanging experiences), and despite that I was safe at home, knowing what I was taking. The only problem was that I was in a bad state of mind. It is truly disturbing to imagine going through that during an arrest, with no idea what is happening
1_player 6y ago
Welcome to the K-Hole.
- mateus1 6y ago
  Yes this is commmonly known as a K-Hole. It's worse than a bad trip from what I've heard. Ketamine is a party drug especially common among young gay people here in Brazil. It's usually briefly inhaled so I'm guessing very low doses. The 500mg mentioned in the article sounds terrible.
  - in3d 6y ago
    "Yes this is commmonly known as a K-Hole. It's worse than a bad trip from what I've heard." No, it doesn't have to be bad at all if it's not used in a bad setting and most people enjoy the effects. It wouldn't be a common drug otherwise. See https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/d3dxzq/we-asked-people-about-the-k-holes-that-changed-their-lives https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/d3dxzq/we-asked-people-ab...
    - mateus1 6y ago
      Ah, I stand corrected! Thanks for the info.
BagPiper5000 6y ago
Accidentally doing too much ketamine and badly k-holing (by snorting) is one of the worst experiences of my life. Maybe the worst. It was exactly as you described, it's like you're being cut off from reality and have no way back. It's like being plunged into the bottom of the ocean, darkness, everything real is distant, you try to move but you can't - it's like someone has unplugged all your sensory organs and limbs. And it comes in waves -- just when you think you're coming out of it, it pulls you back down. I swore off ketamine for life after that and don't plan on ever touching it again. I would take a bad comedown from stimulants over that. I would take the feeling of hopelessness, anhedonia, and thorough depression from a bad MDMA comedown any day. To be fair, both things only happen if you do too much, it's avoidable, and it was entirely my fault for not weighing the dose. And I still think therapeutic ketamine for depression should be studied and trialled and legal. But still, K-holing was an absolutely horrifying experience and I don't recommend it to anyone for any reason. And it probably was only not even worse because I was also on MDMA.
- kristofferR 6y ago
  It can be absolutely wonderful if you're properly prepared though, just lying in your bed with a dim pink light on listening to Carbon Based Lifeforms or something, enjoying escaping your body for a while and floating around in an undefinable sea of warm nothingness. However, it absolutely sounds like it could be hell if you're not prepared though - especially in police custody, but even just fighting against it in a party situation where you want to exist and be social could be problematic.
greggturkington 6y ago
I've dislocated my shoulder four times this year. The last three I've asked them to stop knocking me out w/ketamine for the reasons you describe, and just put it back while I scream; which I find quite preferable. As a youth I did all the drugs and hallucinogens there are and most of them are _nothing_ compared to an anesthetic dose of ketamine. It's the most disassociate experience I've ever had. It feels like you're grasping at your consciousness but can't quite get hold. The hallucinations are incomprehensible. I was told my screaming was heard in the waiting room.

elevenoh 6y ago

Damn. This has me wonder: had you ever done a psychedelic prior to this? I had ketamine during wakeful surgery. Loved it. Grateful it was available. But I had prev. experience w/ psychedelics & had learned/practiced how to: let go, place attention on what's positive & cease to have expectations.

Trasmatta 6y ago
I imagine there's also got to be a difference between getting it for a planned surgery that you can prepare for, vs having it thrust on you suddenly during a traumatic and painful experience. Kind of hard to let go in that situation.
- bjo590 6y ago
  An arrest sound like one of the worst set and settings to get dosed with ketamine. The person being arrested might not know what they were injected with. The person might not trust the police. The person is being detained against their will.
- zwirbl 6y ago
  And several doses of morphine usually have at least some effect on the body/mind
  - enimodas 6y ago
    Some people are immune, or almost immune: https://partner.sciencenorway.no/forskningno-norway-ntnu/genetic-defect-makes-some-nearly-immune-to-morphine/1436463 https://partner.sciencenorway.no/forskningno-norway-ntnu/gen...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
DevoidSimo 6y ago
As other people have said, preparation is a big part of enjoying it. Any hallucinogens without knowing what to expect would be scary.
Dumblydorr 6y ago
Regarding place attention on the positive: Check out Sam Harris interview with Francoise Bourzat. She goes into depth about so called negative trips and feels they are just as important and useful as positive ones. I'm not sure I can summarize why, but she suggested that even negative experiences can be mindfully approached and handled well.

Trasmatta 6y ago

> My perception of time went out the window and it felt like I was in an empty void for an eternity when it was only a few minutes. This was my exact experience with disossiatives as well. I think they can be effectively and safely used, but there's a real danger there. Disossiatives like ketamine and DXM are incredibly powerful. After my experience in that same eternal void I struggled with a fear that what I'd experienced was the natural state of consciousness, and what would happen to me for eternity after I died. I didn't actually believe it, but the fear was still there and talk. Took a few months for it to wear off.

throw32890 6y ago

So you were semi-conscious, could communicate, but could not move. I am afraid that is excellent drug to pacify someone. If we defund police and add more women in police force, we will see much wider use.

RantyDave 6y ago
Unfortunately it turns out the police can't read instructions and have a tendency to put far too much in. It's almost like people who administer drugs need some kind of training...
- miked85 6y ago
  > It's almost like people who administer drugs need some kind of training You mean like paramedics? The article states that paramedics administer the drug.

nerdbaggy 6y ago

Sounds terrible. In a recent surgery in pre op they gave me Versed/Midazolam. I was so spacey it was weird and kinda scary. I can’t imagine what ketamine would be like

throwanem 6y ago
Versed is pretty wild, even at preinduction doses. You can learn to be OK with it, but it was a little scary for me too, the first time I had a procedure that involved it. That procedure also most likely involved ketamine - I don't know for sure, it was a long time ago and nobody told me the names of anything but the Versed and that only because I asked, but I had totally uncharacteristic recurring nightmares and emotional problems for the next little while afterward. When all of that came back up during planning for the surgery I had to have last year, my surgeon noted that that sounded in his experience like ketamine side effects, and that this time I'd be getting propofol, which is not at all a dissociative, instead. And, sure enough, I was just fine after that surgery, despite it being much more invasive and thus painful in its aftereffects. Based on that, I'll echo what others here have already said: the thought of being given a surprise high dose of ketamine, in the context of a situation that also involves the use of violence against one's person, is horrifying, and complex PTSD is the least severe consequence I can imagine.

smabie 6y ago

Are you experienced with drugs? Because most of my friends think ketamine is one the greatest drugs you can do. It would have probably a lot more fun if you were in a comfortable place, like your house, hanging out with your gf or something. Some of the most chill and relaxed moments of my entire life have been on ketamine. I only do it occasionally because of the nasty chronic side-effects, though.

geofft 6y ago
Do your friends generally take drugs involuntarily and without informed awareness of the effects and without a trusted trip sitter the first time they do something new and with associated negative circumstances (like a broken bone or an arrest)?
- aaron_m04 6y ago
  That's GP's point I think: the context of the experience makes all the difference.
  - geofft 6y ago
    Ah, the comment was edited after I replied, oops. Yes. (Though I don't believe whether it's enjoyable in the right setting has much to do with whether cops should be using it. I get that this is a defense of ketamine as a recreational drug, but e.g. alcohol would probably be un-fun if the first time you experienced it was at a high dose during either surgery or an arrest, and that one's widely accepted as a reasonable recreational drug.)
ladberg 6y ago
Nope, not experienced and don't plan to be. I totally believe it could be a nice experience in a different setting, but I doubt that experiencing it in the hospital or mid-arrest would ever be enjoyable.

mr_spothawk 6y ago

SWIM is a tremendous fan of injected ketamine > Think of the hypnosis scene from "Get Out" this is EXACTLY right. > an empty void for an eternity when it was only a few minutes. if you maintained the ability to interpret audio and visual inputs, then probably 20-30 minutes, if SWIM had to guess. > the thought that police use it to pacify someone during an arrest is sickening. this is EXACTLY right. reminds me of the psychonaught/rapist sex therapist guy who was mega-dosing women with MDMA or 2CB before forcing himself on them.

ladberg 6y ago
Yep, I think the empty void feeling was only a few minutes and after that ended it took like 20-30 minutes to be able to open my eyes and regain motor control.
1_player 6y ago
FYI, SWIM means Somebody Who Isn't Me, which is often used on psychedelic enthusiast forums.

ajkdhcb2 6y ago

I had almost exactly the same response the first time I took ketamine. This is despite being experienced with psychedelics (all extremely positive lifechanging experiences), and despite that I was safe at home, knowing what I was taking. The only problem was that I was in a bad state of mind. It is truly disturbing to imagine going through that during an arrest, with no idea what is happening

1_player 6y ago

Welcome to the K-Hole.

mateus1 6y ago
Yes this is commmonly known as a K-Hole. It's worse than a bad trip from what I've heard. Ketamine is a party drug especially common among young gay people here in Brazil. It's usually briefly inhaled so I'm guessing very low doses. The 500mg mentioned in the article sounds terrible.
- in3d 6y ago
  "Yes this is commmonly known as a K-Hole. It's worse than a bad trip from what I've heard." No, it doesn't have to be bad at all if it's not used in a bad setting and most people enjoy the effects. It wouldn't be a common drug otherwise. See https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/d3dxzq/we-asked-people-about-the-k-holes-that-changed-their-lives https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/d3dxzq/we-asked-people-ab...
  - mateus1 6y ago
    Ah, I stand corrected! Thanks for the info.

BagPiper5000 6y ago

Accidentally doing too much ketamine and badly k-holing (by snorting) is one of the worst experiences of my life. Maybe the worst. It was exactly as you described, it's like you're being cut off from reality and have no way back. It's like being plunged into the bottom of the ocean, darkness, everything real is distant, you try to move but you can't - it's like someone has unplugged all your sensory organs and limbs. And it comes in waves -- just when you think you're coming out of it, it pulls you back down. I swore off ketamine for life after that and don't plan on ever touching it again. I would take a bad comedown from stimulants over that. I would take the feeling of hopelessness, anhedonia, and thorough depression from a bad MDMA comedown any day. To be fair, both things only happen if you do too much, it's avoidable, and it was entirely my fault for not weighing the dose. And I still think therapeutic ketamine for depression should be studied and trialled and legal. But still, K-holing was an absolutely horrifying experience and I don't recommend it to anyone for any reason. And it probably was only not even worse because I was also on MDMA.

kristofferR 6y ago
It can be absolutely wonderful if you're properly prepared though, just lying in your bed with a dim pink light on listening to Carbon Based Lifeforms or something, enjoying escaping your body for a while and floating around in an undefinable sea of warm nothingness. However, it absolutely sounds like it could be hell if you're not prepared though - especially in police custody, but even just fighting against it in a party situation where you want to exist and be social could be problematic.

greggturkington 6y ago

I've dislocated my shoulder four times this year. The last three I've asked them to stop knocking me out w/ketamine for the reasons you describe, and just put it back while I scream; which I find quite preferable. As a youth I did all the drugs and hallucinogens there are and most of them are _nothing_ compared to an anesthetic dose of ketamine. It's the most disassociate experience I've ever had. It feels like you're grasping at your consciousness but can't quite get hold. The hallucinations are incomprehensible. I was told my screaming was heard in the waiting room.