3 ms·

> but in Brave New World we're shown exactly one person (out of how many billions?) So you're saying that if Demons outnumbered humans billion to one, Hell wou

by Ygg2 6y ago

> but in Brave New World we're shown exactly one person (out of how many billions?) So you're saying that if Demons outnumbered humans billion to one, Hell would be a utopia. Also from my recollection it wasn't just one. Several characters were deeply unhappy about their status. There is no reason to believe these characters are outliers, there could be others. Although to be honest, most Brave New World people don't qualify as humans. They don't mourn their losses, create anything or believe in anything. They just consume. Most of them don't even procreate, since they are sterile.

082349872349872 6y ago
If demons outnumbered humans billions to one, Hell would be a utilitarian utopia. (Some kind people pointed me in the links above to Adorno and Mancuse, who attempted to address this obvious conclusion. Huxley himself wrote Island[1] as a more humane alternative. For an opposing opinion on what commutative associative operator one should use to lump up "general utility", see Those Who Walk Away From Omelas[2].) Following the links given above, we have what happens to the other characters: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23513002 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23513002 I agree reasonable people may differ, but I'll still churlishly maintain the Savage (born viviparously) is the only one who's deeply unhappy. Marx (is it true what They say about the alcohol[3] in his bottle?) is annoyed, but he's happy enough when he can take advantage of the Savage, showing that he doesn't mind the System as long as he's comfortably near the top of his caste. Helmholtz is merely yearning to create literature, but since he doesn't know what that is, he doesn't realise what he hasn't done.) There is every reason to believe these characters are outliers, because it's explained that Alphas can't have as much conditioning[3,5] as the other castes, because they can handle creative jobs. Mond was unsatisfied, and got kicked upstairs. On the other hand, we have Fanny, and the Director[4], the members of Marx' Community Sing, and the entire supporting background cast. As Mond explicitly states the islands are society's escape valve for those who grow too individual, it seems unlikely there are many in the pre-island phase at any given time. The people in BNW count as humans to me: they are, in Marcus Aurelius' words, "meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous and surly" which makes them more human than, say, Spock (-0=0 and Mirror Spock = Spock). As to the specific charges: - mourn losses: what losses are there to mourn? BNW is set centuries after a post-economic singularity, for Ford's sake. "People are happy; they get what they want, and they never want what they can't get." And a gramme is better than a damn, anyway :-) There is at least one major religion that believes being hungry occasionally is a necessary part of being human. Would the people of the BNW consider mourning like other religions consider hunger? - create anything: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24108488 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24108488 What about feelies, flivvers, etc. etc.? Helmholtz himself works as a creative.[5] - freemartins: (this is a technical agricultural[6] term) are 35% of the population, so they are many but not most. Yes, that was pedantic. Many fewer than the non-reproductive population of other domesticated large animal species, to be certain. In any case, if one is not viviparous, then being a freemartin would seem to be superior, as one could always visit a feely or play another round of electromagnetic golf while the non-freemartins have to do their Malthusian Drill[7]. [1] I have not read this one yet, but a spoiler from the WP page is that said utopia doesn't exactly survive contact with the mundane world. Apocalypse Now reversed? [2] If there's anyone on HN who doesn't have enough sense not to start a vegan restaurant, consider naming it "Those Who Walk Away From Omelettes", please. [3] Up until recently in ireland, pregnant women were prescribed Guinness "for the iron." An irish friend says when she was young there were still a few unfortunates whose mothers must have been drinking more than a pint. [3,5] "Eton is reserved exclusively for upper-caste boys and girls. One egg, one adult. It makes education more difficult of course. But as they'll be called upon to take responsibilities and deal with unexpected emergencies, it can't be helped." (I note that Eton has yet to, as in the BNW, have a Head Mistress. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Head_Masters_of_Eton_College https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Head_Masters_of_Eton_C... ) Something that may help to explain Huxley's choice of hypnopaedic suggestions: british children (as Gods of the Copybook Headings suggests) used to copy "educational" snippets over and over. These days we use advertising more than education to inculcate and reinforce class distinctions, but the effects are similar. Because Orwell attended a second-rate boarding school, which "taught to the test", they never read classical authors in the whole, but were simply given received opinions and studied only a few key (carefully chosen so as not to disturb morals!) passages. The inclusion of both Eton and The Delta Mirror suggest to me that Huxley had just as much to say about his own time as he does about the future. Presumably the lack of sexual hangups means education of the leadership caste in the BNW has fewer peccadillos than our own time (although it may well be a penetrating example of the values learned from a thorough reading of the classics, cooked swine can't consent!). [4] Euthanasia via soma overdose is quietly implicit in a few passages. I suspect the Director may wind up there. [5] If Brave New World is one example of what one gets when writers find they must often, in order to earn a biscuit, write copy instead of, on their own dime, art, then The Space Merchants is another. [6] Dairy farmers are not fond of freemartins, because they need sons and daughters to produce veal and milk. Post Bokanovsky, that is perhaps not an issue — but we aren't treated, IIRC, to any information about the cuisine of the BNW. People here used to judge bulls by how they looked. The US taught us instead to rate them by how many litres of milk per input their daughters produce. Moneyball, only the balls are Rocky Mountain Oysters. [7] Huxley was only a few decades early on this front? "Schatzbutz Mausiherz ich lieb dich das ist kein Scherz / Fummel fummel kille kille, du nimmst eh die Pille..."
- Ygg2 6y ago
  > Utilitarian utopia for demons Are you a demon? If you go to hell and you see hundreds delighting in your pain, would you say to yourself, yes I may be tortured for eternity, but my pain definitely makes someone happy. Or would you be pissed so many are enjoying your pain. > People are happy; they get what they want, and they never want what they can't get. Heimholtz. Also they make people like that, they kill their ambition through breeding and mental control. And even then, it's not perfect. > what losses are there to mourn All these systems assume things don't change. Things always change. Either through evolution or changes on a cosmic scale. Imagine for a second, meteor hits the main soma production center. Hundreds killed, thousands left without their drug. Or a rogue solar flare, fries any and all machines. What then? Or, by freak of nature soma allergic or soma immune individual appeared. Unless humans have God-like insight, do they know that one version of protein won't cause another protein to fit neatly into a Soma looking hole. There are always things to mourn, the novel doesn't show them correctly.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    For the demon's point of view, I guess I'll have to reread The Screwtape Letters. > > they never want what they can't get. > Also they make people like that, they kill their ambition through breeding and mental control. I admit they're more advanced than we have been, but how different is "I'm really awfully glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard." from camels and needle eyes? It may be more efficient for alphas to wear grey and deltas to wear khaki, but we can still trivially recognise the difference between the likely ambitions of the people depicted in https://i.pinimg.com/originals/02/78/71/0278718a44733e6a05c5c54a3043e5b2.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/originals/02/78/71/0278718a44733e6a05c5... and https://scontent.fqls1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/88175441_1108859606126753_3110487355249655808_o.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_sid=6e5ad9&_nc_ohc=xFkCz9MtKzwAX_rgPWY&_nc_ht=scontent.fqls1-1.fna&oh=52797296f7700c5d2e104114a808d6ed&oe=5F697E4A https://scontent.fqls1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/88175441_110... thanks to thousands of repetitions[1] of our lessons in childhood... The US may be finer-grained than the BNW: instead of having only 5 castes α β γ etc. they use nine-digit post codes to indicate their socioeconomic status. (then again, there was "on Wednesdays we wear pink.") Mond: "Degrade him from what position? As a happy, hard-working, goods-consuming citizen he's perfect. Of course, if you choose some other standard than ours, then perhaps you might say he was degraded. But you've got to stick to one set of postulates. You can't play Electro-magnetic Golf according to the rules of Centrifugal Bumble-puppy." [1] I was once reading a description of big community feasts in pakistan, in which it was described that the local landlords don't dress any differently from their tenants, but visiting elite do dress fancy, to gain admission to the VIP tent. It sounded very similar to the dress code of a Midland TX BBQ. "I'm glad I'm a Beta", sung in yank: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLyqUuXrXkw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLyqUuXrXkw

by Ygg2 6y ago

082349872349872 6y ago

If demons outnumbered humans billions to one, Hell would be a utilitarian utopia. (Some kind people pointed me in the links above to Adorno and Mancuse, who attempted to address this obvious conclusion. Huxley himself wrote Island[1] as a more humane alternative. For an opposing opinion on what commutative associative operator one should use to lump up "general utility", see Those Who Walk Away From Omelas[2].) Following the links given above, we have what happens to the other characters: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23513002 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23513002 I agree reasonable people may differ, but I'll still churlishly maintain the Savage (born viviparously) is the only one who's deeply unhappy. Marx (is it true what They say about the alcohol[3] in his bottle?) is annoyed, but he's happy enough when he can take advantage of the Savage, showing that he doesn't mind the System as long as he's comfortably near the top of his caste. Helmholtz is merely yearning to create literature, but since he doesn't know what that is, he doesn't realise what he hasn't done.) There is every reason to believe these characters are outliers, because it's explained that Alphas can't have as much conditioning[3,5] as the other castes, because they can handle creative jobs. Mond was unsatisfied, and got kicked upstairs. On the other hand, we have Fanny, and the Director[4], the members of Marx' Community Sing, and the entire supporting background cast. As Mond explicitly states the islands are society's escape valve for those who grow too individual, it seems unlikely there are many in the pre-island phase at any given time. The people in BNW count as humans to me: they are, in Marcus Aurelius' words, "meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous and surly" which makes them more human than, say, Spock (-0=0 and Mirror Spock = Spock). As to the specific charges: - mourn losses: what losses are there to mourn? BNW is set centuries after a post-economic singularity, for Ford's sake. "People are happy; they get what they want, and they never want what they can't get." And a gramme is better than a damn, anyway :-) There is at least one major religion that believes being hungry occasionally is a necessary part of being human. Would the people of the BNW consider mourning like other religions consider hunger? - create anything: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24108488 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24108488 What about feelies, flivvers, etc. etc.? Helmholtz himself works as a creative.[5] - freemartins: (this is a technical agricultural[6] term) are 35% of the population, so they are many but not most. Yes, that was pedantic. Many fewer than the non-reproductive population of other domesticated large animal species, to be certain. In any case, if one is not viviparous, then being a freemartin would seem to be superior, as one could always visit a feely or play another round of electromagnetic golf while the non-freemartins have to do their Malthusian Drill[7]. [1] I have not read this one yet, but a spoiler from the WP page is that said utopia doesn't exactly survive contact with the mundane world. Apocalypse Now reversed? [2] If there's anyone on HN who doesn't have enough sense not to start a vegan restaurant, consider naming it "Those Who Walk Away From Omelettes", please. [3] Up until recently in ireland, pregnant women were prescribed Guinness "for the iron." An irish friend says when she was young there were still a few unfortunates whose mothers must have been drinking more than a pint. [3,5] "Eton is reserved exclusively for upper-caste boys and girls. One egg, one adult. It makes education more difficult of course. But as they'll be called upon to take responsibilities and deal with unexpected emergencies, it can't be helped." (I note that Eton has yet to, as in the BNW, have a Head Mistress. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Head_Masters_of_Eton_College https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Head_Masters_of_Eton_C... ) Something that may help to explain Huxley's choice of hypnopaedic suggestions: british children (as Gods of the Copybook Headings suggests) used to copy "educational" snippets over and over. These days we use advertising more than education to inculcate and reinforce class distinctions, but the effects are similar. Because Orwell attended a second-rate boarding school, which "taught to the test", they never read classical authors in the whole, but were simply given received opinions and studied only a few key (carefully chosen so as not to disturb morals!) passages. The inclusion of both Eton and The Delta Mirror suggest to me that Huxley had just as much to say about his own time as he does about the future. Presumably the lack of sexual hangups means education of the leadership caste in the BNW has fewer peccadillos than our own time (although it may well be a penetrating example of the values learned from a thorough reading of the classics, cooked swine can't consent!). [4] Euthanasia via soma overdose is quietly implicit in a few passages. I suspect the Director may wind up there. [5] If Brave New World is one example of what one gets when writers find they must often, in order to earn a biscuit, write copy instead of, on their own dime, art, then The Space Merchants is another. [6] Dairy farmers are not fond of freemartins, because they need sons and daughters to produce veal and milk. Post Bokanovsky, that is perhaps not an issue — but we aren't treated, IIRC, to any information about the cuisine of the BNW. People here used to judge bulls by how they looked. The US taught us instead to rate them by how many litres of milk per input their daughters produce. Moneyball, only the balls are Rocky Mountain Oysters. [7] Huxley was only a few decades early on this front? "Schatzbutz Mausiherz ich lieb dich das ist kein Scherz / Fummel fummel kille kille, du nimmst eh die Pille..."

Ygg2 6y ago
> Utilitarian utopia for demons Are you a demon? If you go to hell and you see hundreds delighting in your pain, would you say to yourself, yes I may be tortured for eternity, but my pain definitely makes someone happy. Or would you be pissed so many are enjoying your pain. > People are happy; they get what they want, and they never want what they can't get. Heimholtz. Also they make people like that, they kill their ambition through breeding and mental control. And even then, it's not perfect. > what losses are there to mourn All these systems assume things don't change. Things always change. Either through evolution or changes on a cosmic scale. Imagine for a second, meteor hits the main soma production center. Hundreds killed, thousands left without their drug. Or a rogue solar flare, fries any and all machines. What then? Or, by freak of nature soma allergic or soma immune individual appeared. Unless humans have God-like insight, do they know that one version of protein won't cause another protein to fit neatly into a Soma looking hole. There are always things to mourn, the novel doesn't show them correctly.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  For the demon's point of view, I guess I'll have to reread The Screwtape Letters. > > they never want what they can't get. > Also they make people like that, they kill their ambition through breeding and mental control. I admit they're more advanced than we have been, but how different is "I'm really awfully glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard." from camels and needle eyes? It may be more efficient for alphas to wear grey and deltas to wear khaki, but we can still trivially recognise the difference between the likely ambitions of the people depicted in https://i.pinimg.com/originals/02/78/71/0278718a44733e6a05c5c54a3043e5b2.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/originals/02/78/71/0278718a44733e6a05c5... and https://scontent.fqls1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/88175441_1108859606126753_3110487355249655808_o.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_sid=6e5ad9&_nc_ohc=xFkCz9MtKzwAX_rgPWY&_nc_ht=scontent.fqls1-1.fna&oh=52797296f7700c5d2e104114a808d6ed&oe=5F697E4A https://scontent.fqls1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/88175441_110... thanks to thousands of repetitions[1] of our lessons in childhood... The US may be finer-grained than the BNW: instead of having only 5 castes α β γ etc. they use nine-digit post codes to indicate their socioeconomic status. (then again, there was "on Wednesdays we wear pink.") Mond: "Degrade him from what position? As a happy, hard-working, goods-consuming citizen he's perfect. Of course, if you choose some other standard than ours, then perhaps you might say he was degraded. But you've got to stick to one set of postulates. You can't play Electro-magnetic Golf according to the rules of Centrifugal Bumble-puppy." [1] I was once reading a description of big community feasts in pakistan, in which it was described that the local landlords don't dress any differently from their tenants, but visiting elite do dress fancy, to gain admission to the VIP tent. It sounded very similar to the dress code of a Midland TX BBQ. "I'm glad I'm a Beta", sung in yank: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLyqUuXrXkw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLyqUuXrXkw